6 ms·

I would say that 3 out of 3 developers are self-taught, but that about one third of them also have a degree in Computer Science.

deleted 11y ago
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pklausler 11y ago
Or mathematics, or physics, or astronomy; and I'd rather hire any of those than a modern CS graduate, everything else being equal.
- Sahonon 11y ago
  A purely selfish request, I know, but may I ask why? :)
  - pklausler 11y ago
    It's a lot harder to fake one's way to a mathematics degree if one lacks or cannot acquire rigorous reasoning skills, and those are critical to the construction of quality software. Whereas I interview a lot of CS graduates who have degrees from fine schools and can't solve simple analytical problems or write a straightforward predicate expression to test for a well-defined condition.
    - twright0 11y ago
      But you said "everything else being equal", so I'm confused why you're highlighting the extreme negative examples. If you interview a math major and a CS major and they both do equally well on those simple analytical problems - would you still rather hire the math major?
      - mreiland 11y ago
        yes, his point is that he could be wrong about the hire decision, and going with the mathematics degree is more likely to be right. Whether or not that's true is another discussion, but that's the point he's making. I have a degree in CS & Math, so I'm guessing I'm good to go :)
      - pklausler 11y ago
        I'd make offers to both, of course, once I've moved on from the simple question to the hard ones and observed good answers! Good candidates are rare.
    - Jtsummers 11y ago
      My experience is mostly counter to this. At least with respect to engineers (fewer mathematician and scientist types that I've encountered professionally). My office prefers engineers of computer scientists, to such an extreme they'd hire a civil engineer over a computer scientist. The consequence is a lot of people that know nothing beyond basic algorithms and data structures who try to code their own geographical databases using arrays/linked lists and wonder why queries like find the nearest neighbor to X and find all objects within this shape take forever. The answer is, they used the wrong data structures. But convincing them of that is like pulling teeth. Also, according to several of them, C = C++, and every language gets compiled to C so why would you use anything else...
- OpenDrapery 11y ago
  What are the odds that you do not have a CS degree, and have been made to feel inferior at some point(s) in your life, for that reason?
- aub3bhat 11y ago
  Having taught/graded students who graduated with various backgrounds ranging from undergraduate degrees in CS, ECE, to Maths and from IIT, MIT to Duke. I can assure you that its probably inferiority complex about your own CS education or math envy that is behind this line of reasoning. Given a particular school a median CS major is typically always a better programmer/problem-solver than an equivalent Physics or Applied math major.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - lloyd-christmas 11y ago
    Self Disclosure: I was a Math/Econ major with a minor in Applied Statistics (almost a decade ago). > Given a particular school a median CS major is typically always a better programmer/problem-solver than an equivalent Physics or Applied math major. The highest scoring undergraduate degree for those who take the MCATs is Math/Stats. The second highest is Physical Sciences. Far and away, last place is Specialized Health Sciences, with Biology also lagging[1]. The reason isn't because "Math majors are smarter", it's because they are choosing to go into a field that isn't the directly assumed career path. A Math major HAS to stand out compared to the average CS major when going into a programming field, just as an English major HAS to stand out compared to a Finance major when going into finance. If I am interviewing a Math major and a CS major, chances are the Math major is "better" (whatever that contextually means), simply because they've already stood out above all the CS majors. All that being said, let's not pretend our undergraduate degrees are anything more than a rubber stamp. [1] https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf
    - aub3bhat 11y ago
      >> let's not pretend our undergraduate degrees are anything more than a rubber stamp. May be at the school you studied at. Having taught / studied at Cornell (a highly ranked CS school) and Syracuse (ranked ~50th in USA) there is a huge gap between difficulty & level of effort required in undergraduate courses. Ignoring it as if its just a rubber stamp is a huge mistake. Honestly while there were several good students at Syracuse, I can frankly attest that even an average CS Major at Cornell is better than the 90% of students at Syracuse.
eric_h 11y ago
I agree completely - I studied Computer Science in college, but nevertheless I learned how to program by teaching myself. I got value out of studying comp sci, but by no means whatsoever did studying comp sci teach me how to build software.
TranquilMarmot 11y ago
Yes! I view my degree and experience getting it in college as incredibly useful for learning all sorts of theory and the like that I wouldn't have taught myself because I don't find it particularly interesting. But it's still useful knowledge to have in the back of your head. 90% of what I do daily on the job and any pracitcal/useful programming is stuff I've taught myself over the years.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

pklausler 11y ago

Or mathematics, or physics, or astronomy; and I'd rather hire any of those than a modern CS graduate, everything else being equal.

Sahonon 11y ago
A purely selfish request, I know, but may I ask why? :)
- pklausler 11y ago
  It's a lot harder to fake one's way to a mathematics degree if one lacks or cannot acquire rigorous reasoning skills, and those are critical to the construction of quality software. Whereas I interview a lot of CS graduates who have degrees from fine schools and can't solve simple analytical problems or write a straightforward predicate expression to test for a well-defined condition.
  - twright0 11y ago
    But you said "everything else being equal", so I'm confused why you're highlighting the extreme negative examples. If you interview a math major and a CS major and they both do equally well on those simple analytical problems - would you still rather hire the math major?
    - mreiland 11y ago
      yes, his point is that he could be wrong about the hire decision, and going with the mathematics degree is more likely to be right. Whether or not that's true is another discussion, but that's the point he's making. I have a degree in CS & Math, so I'm guessing I'm good to go :)
    - pklausler 11y ago
      I'd make offers to both, of course, once I've moved on from the simple question to the hard ones and observed good answers! Good candidates are rare.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    My experience is mostly counter to this. At least with respect to engineers (fewer mathematician and scientist types that I've encountered professionally). My office prefers engineers of computer scientists, to such an extreme they'd hire a civil engineer over a computer scientist. The consequence is a lot of people that know nothing beyond basic algorithms and data structures who try to code their own geographical databases using arrays/linked lists and wonder why queries like find the nearest neighbor to X and find all objects within this shape take forever. The answer is, they used the wrong data structures. But convincing them of that is like pulling teeth. Also, according to several of them, C = C++, and every language gets compiled to C so why would you use anything else...
OpenDrapery 11y ago
What are the odds that you do not have a CS degree, and have been made to feel inferior at some point(s) in your life, for that reason?
aub3bhat 11y ago
Having taught/graded students who graduated with various backgrounds ranging from undergraduate degrees in CS, ECE, to Maths and from IIT, MIT to Duke. I can assure you that its probably inferiority complex about your own CS education or math envy that is behind this line of reasoning. Given a particular school a median CS major is typically always a better programmer/problem-solver than an equivalent Physics or Applied math major.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- lloyd-christmas 11y ago
  Self Disclosure: I was a Math/Econ major with a minor in Applied Statistics (almost a decade ago). > Given a particular school a median CS major is typically always a better programmer/problem-solver than an equivalent Physics or Applied math major. The highest scoring undergraduate degree for those who take the MCATs is Math/Stats. The second highest is Physical Sciences. Far and away, last place is Specialized Health Sciences, with Biology also lagging[1]. The reason isn't because "Math majors are smarter", it's because they are choosing to go into a field that isn't the directly assumed career path. A Math major HAS to stand out compared to the average CS major when going into a programming field, just as an English major HAS to stand out compared to a Finance major when going into finance. If I am interviewing a Math major and a CS major, chances are the Math major is "better" (whatever that contextually means), simply because they've already stood out above all the CS majors. All that being said, let's not pretend our undergraduate degrees are anything more than a rubber stamp. [1] https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf
  - aub3bhat 11y ago
    >> let's not pretend our undergraduate degrees are anything more than a rubber stamp. May be at the school you studied at. Having taught / studied at Cornell (a highly ranked CS school) and Syracuse (ranked ~50th in USA) there is a huge gap between difficulty & level of effort required in undergraduate courses. Ignoring it as if its just a rubber stamp is a huge mistake. Honestly while there were several good students at Syracuse, I can frankly attest that even an average CS Major at Cornell is better than the 90% of students at Syracuse.

eric_h 11y ago

I agree completely - I studied Computer Science in college, but nevertheless I learned how to program by teaching myself. I got value out of studying comp sci, but by no means whatsoever did studying comp sci teach me how to build software.

TranquilMarmot 11y ago

Yes! I view my degree and experience getting it in college as incredibly useful for learning all sorts of theory and the like that I wouldn't have taught myself because I don't find it particularly interesting. But it's still useful knowledge to have in the back of your head. 90% of what I do daily on the job and any pracitcal/useful programming is stuff I've taught myself over the years.