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> If provided back to the grid, the homeowner should get paid the spot price like every other generator, not full residential rates. I mean "should" depends on

> If provided back to the grid, the homeowner should get paid the spot price like every other generator, not full residential rates. I mean "should" depends on the goal of the pricing policy right? If the goal is a "fair comparison", perhaps the policy makers should include the cost of mitigating externalities in the price of carbon-producing electricity sources.

paulsutter 11y ago
We should absolutely put a price on carbon, yes. That would penalize carbon emissions. Net metering is no substitute for a price on carbon. For real green power, we need to storage to balance out solar generation. Net metering /prevents/ storage from being installed. EDIT: Never going to happen? Actually it's /already/ happened. Examples: - California already has a low carbon fuel standard[1] that regulates "well to wheel" carbon content of transportation fuels (some sources like tar sands have high carbon emissions in the production process[2]). This is a significant step towards a real carbon price and an opening to provide fuels generated through a green process. - California' Emission Performance Standard (EPS) no longer allows use of coal-generated electricity[3] which has caused a complete phaseout of coal plants in favor of natural gas (which has half the carbon intensity). Again, this is a restriction of the carbon-intensity of power generation which is also an effective step towards a carbon price. [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/california-restores-rule-to-cut-carbon-in-fuel-by-10-1443219215 http://www.wsj.com/articles/california-restores-rule-to-cut-... [2] http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tar-sands-and-keystone-xl-pipeline-impact-on-global-warming/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tar-sands-and-keys... [3] http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/tracking_progress/documents/current_expected_energy_from_coal.pdf http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/tracking_progress/docume...
- melling 11y ago
  Ok, let pretend that's never going to happen because it's not going to happen. Where does solar win in the current political/economic environment and where is it close to winning? Making forward progress in the next decade is going to help more than wishing for a level playing field. Maybe we can push solar costs lower once the industry grows: http://cleantechnica.com/2015/08/13/us-solar-pv-cost-fell-50-5-years-government-report/ http://cleantechnica.com/2015/08/13/us-solar-pv-cost-fell-50...
  - TheIronYuppie 11y ago
    For what value of "never"? Carbon tax on the ballot in Washington this fall - http://yeson732.org/ http://yeson732.org/
    - melling 11y ago
      You got me there!! The state that gets 75% of its electricity from hydro leads the way! https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plants/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plant... As of today, there are still 50 states to go, plus the rest of the world. Better sell your beachfront property. Time"s up.
  - pilom 11y ago
    Residential installation in Denver CO at $2.16/W after federal incentive. Just about exactly grid pairity. Their $3.50/watt number is way high compared to the reality of today in the US.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >Net metering is no substitute for a price on carbon. It absolutely is since there is no price on carbon and no realistic prospect of one any time soon.
  - gburt 11y ago
    $30/ton CO2e in BC, in effect today: http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/tbs/tp/climate/A6.htm http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/tbs/tp/climate/A6.htm Of course, that's probably not enough. See Greg Mankiw's "invitation to the Pigou club" where he discusses the research on the "correct" value (estimated at between $80 and $300 per ton): http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mankiw/files/smart_taxes.pdf http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mankiw/files/smart_taxes.pd...
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  > Net metering /prevents/ storage from being installed. In a well regulated electricity grid, storage is used at the grid level, not at consumer level. Net metering (which is good regulation) limits the latter, not the former, it actually increases the demand for grid storage by increasing the amount of solar supply.

paulsutter 11y ago

We should absolutely put a price on carbon, yes. That would penalize carbon emissions. Net metering is no substitute for a price on carbon. For real green power, we need to storage to balance out solar generation. Net metering /prevents/ storage from being installed. EDIT: Never going to happen? Actually it's /already/ happened. Examples: - California already has a low carbon fuel standard[1] that regulates "well to wheel" carbon content of transportation fuels (some sources like tar sands have high carbon emissions in the production process[2]). This is a significant step towards a real carbon price and an opening to provide fuels generated through a green process. - California' Emission Performance Standard (EPS) no longer allows use of coal-generated electricity[3] which has caused a complete phaseout of coal plants in favor of natural gas (which has half the carbon intensity). Again, this is a restriction of the carbon-intensity of power generation which is also an effective step towards a carbon price. [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/california-restores-rule-to-cut-carbon-in-fuel-by-10-1443219215 http://www.wsj.com/articles/california-restores-rule-to-cut-... [2] http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tar-sands-and-keystone-xl-pipeline-impact-on-global-warming/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tar-sands-and-keys... [3] http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/tracking_progress/documents/current_expected_energy_from_coal.pdf http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/tracking_progress/docume...

melling 11y ago
Ok, let pretend that's never going to happen because it's not going to happen. Where does solar win in the current political/economic environment and where is it close to winning? Making forward progress in the next decade is going to help more than wishing for a level playing field. Maybe we can push solar costs lower once the industry grows: http://cleantechnica.com/2015/08/13/us-solar-pv-cost-fell-50-5-years-government-report/ http://cleantechnica.com/2015/08/13/us-solar-pv-cost-fell-50...
- TheIronYuppie 11y ago
  For what value of "never"? Carbon tax on the ballot in Washington this fall - http://yeson732.org/ http://yeson732.org/
  - melling 11y ago
    You got me there!! The state that gets 75% of its electricity from hydro leads the way! https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plants/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plant... As of today, there are still 50 states to go, plus the rest of the world. Better sell your beachfront property. Time"s up.
- pilom 11y ago
  Residential installation in Denver CO at $2.16/W after federal incentive. Just about exactly grid pairity. Their $3.50/watt number is way high compared to the reality of today in the US.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>Net metering is no substitute for a price on carbon. It absolutely is since there is no price on carbon and no realistic prospect of one any time soon.
- gburt 11y ago
  $30/ton CO2e in BC, in effect today: http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/tbs/tp/climate/A6.htm http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/tbs/tp/climate/A6.htm Of course, that's probably not enough. See Greg Mankiw's "invitation to the Pigou club" where he discusses the research on the "correct" value (estimated at between $80 and $300 per ton): http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mankiw/files/smart_taxes.pdf http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mankiw/files/smart_taxes.pd...
ZeroGravitas 11y ago
> Net metering /prevents/ storage from being installed. In a well regulated electricity grid, storage is used at the grid level, not at consumer level. Net metering (which is good regulation) limits the latter, not the former, it actually increases the demand for grid storage by increasing the amount of solar supply.