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I'm a Turkish expat (read: immigrant) working in Germany as a software engineer since 7 years. This situation disturbs me two folds: 1) For the reasons you men

I'm a Turkish expat (read: immigrant) working in Germany as a software engineer since 7 years. This situation disturbs me two folds: 1) For the reasons you mentioned already, 2) The power gained through this dirty game being used to suppress the already heavily weakened opposition further in my once democratic country (However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest).

Udo 11y ago
> However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest As a fellow German, it's encouraging to hear that immigrants sometimes still feel they can identify with Germany as their new country, despite all the obvious hurdles. My ex girlfriend's parents moved back to Turkey recently after spending pretty much their entire working lives in Germany, which got me thinking a lot. They said their primary reasons were that they could do more with their retirement money in Turkey and that the weather is nicer - but at the end of the day it means a liberal, secular couple felt like they would be better off moving into a country with a failing democracy, increasing religious fundamentalism, with a wannabe Putin in charge, as opposed to staying where they spent most of their lives.
- cm3 11y ago
  That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something people disagree with, they're easy to isolate the person as someone with a migration background. I've always seen this as a way of the German Germans (aka Christians and Jews) to feel better, being able to separate those people's behavior from their German German behavior. This basically goes back to the defeat in Vienna, basically. The mistake most of non-Turkish German population does is to conflate descendants of Turkish immigrants with Turks from current day Turkey. It's almost like comparing an African-American from Georgia with someone from Nigeria. So, I can totally understand why the parents would want to move to Turkey for their retirement. And to be fair, there are many English and German retired couples who move to Turkey just as they do to Spain or France.
  - Udo 11y ago
    > That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. I think the experience of this particular group-based conflict varies wildly depending on life circumstances. In particular, living in a nice neighbourhood and purposefully modelling their lives on middle class Germans, my ex' parents didn't see a lot of conflict or direct hostility. But I can still see how they may have felt isolated or unwelcome in a thousand little ways that simply added up over time. To make it extra clear, in case that didn't come across in my original comment: I totally understand why they're doing this. They probably felt alienated and badly integrated. Heck, I'm a native-born German and I feel culturally alienated too, even though my cultural perspective is entirely different than theirs. If I think Germany is a cold place in general, that impression must be even more amplified from an immigrant's perspective.
    - cm3 11y ago
      To expand on this, it's exactly a thousand little ways that add up. In your day to day business, like an an African American, there is no visible discrimination, but in any case of disagreement one party quickly pulls the you're-from-the-other-tribe card. Goes for both sides. I stood by when a Turkish friend got accused by a German-German to be a sleazy Turk who lives off the state (which he clearly does not), just because he was trying to reach consensus in a conflict. I don't know if I could have stayed calm if it had been me being singled out as a lesser German citizen. In essence, a thousand little and unremarkable experiences do add up, and this is a major reason why the youth would seek refuge in groups that accept them fully but like Neo-Nazi campfire events it's mostly Rattenfaengertum. I like to think it's all because of missing proper education (not mis-education), which has to start with the parents.
      - cm3 11y ago
        Rattenfaengertum is a word which can be summed up with Pied Piper, if you know the story. Sorry to English readers who had been wondering. Ratte = rat, fangen = to catch, tum = utility suffixed almost like dom but more as in ness like somethingness.
    - 11y ago
- egeozcan 11y ago
  I never felt unwelcome, but I think there are some incompatibilities between German and Turkish cultures (and I would rather not generalize them as Western vs Eastern) which one needs to overcome before feeling totally comfortable. Another reason could be overzealous repetition of the word "integration" making the same effect on immigrants that the word "rule" makes on teenagers. Also, I wouldn't discount monetary, climatic and religious reasons so easily. I'm a theological noncognitivist and have thankfully no serious financial issues but sometimes I think about moving to somewhere with a nicer weather - especially in those depressing-weather days =) The best candidate would be then Spain but well, I really like it here.
roel_v 11y ago
"in my once democratic country" The ironic thing is that a few years ago, when the generals still kept the government in check to ensure the secular nature of the Turkish state, the streak in the European left was "Turkey is not democratic because the military has too much power", and the 2002 reforms were heralded as a major improvement. Something about a frying pan and a fire comes to mind...
- egeozcan 11y ago
  I actually thought about putting democratic in quotes but then decided that could steer the discussion further off topic. Rest assured that the irony is not lost on me.
wayn3 11y ago
It's really weird to think of you as an expat, because we are used to thinking of the turkish in ways that are improper. Most expats are expats because the grass was greener where they went. Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"? Just using that word makes it seem filthy for people from the middle east to come to europe. How are they different from europeans leaving their countries behind? Language is powerful. Do you feel welcome in germany? Just curious.
- egeozcan 11y ago
  > Do you feel welcome in Germany? Just curious. Yes. After living even in a "conservative" town, I feel more welcome than I feel in the city I was born - Istanbul. In my first 5 years, I usually had to ask people to speak to me in German, they usually switched to English to make me more comfortable. Sure, I can give many examples of racism but the great thing about Germany is that racists aren't significant threats to my rights as a resident. Also, I think back in Turkey, there were many more cases of racism - it's just that they don't get any attention among "bigger problems" (what being a bigger problem is another topic I'd rather not dig into). After all, I'm happy that here people are ready to discuss such things. > Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"? I would guess if you came here to advance your career, then you are eligible to be an expat. Of course I'm kidding. I think many people, for not-so-evil-but-still-a-bit-disturbing reasons, would not like to be called an immigrant. I actually do not care and am happy with the word.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  The difference between an 'expat' and an 'immigrant' is that an expat made their choice from a position of strength and an immigrant made their choice from a position of weakness. That's really all there is to it, everything else is exactly the same. Though usually people from wealthy countries would not like to be known as 'immigrants', they are expats, of course.
  - melvinmt 11y ago
    It's all relative - I've moved to the US from NL (relatively wealthy I'd say) and I have never considered myself an expat. I'm an immigrant.

Udo 11y ago

> However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest As a fellow German, it's encouraging to hear that immigrants sometimes still feel they can identify with Germany as their new country, despite all the obvious hurdles. My ex girlfriend's parents moved back to Turkey recently after spending pretty much their entire working lives in Germany, which got me thinking a lot. They said their primary reasons were that they could do more with their retirement money in Turkey and that the weather is nicer - but at the end of the day it means a liberal, secular couple felt like they would be better off moving into a country with a failing democracy, increasing religious fundamentalism, with a wannabe Putin in charge, as opposed to staying where they spent most of their lives.

cm3 11y ago
That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something people disagree with, they're easy to isolate the person as someone with a migration background. I've always seen this as a way of the German Germans (aka Christians and Jews) to feel better, being able to separate those people's behavior from their German German behavior. This basically goes back to the defeat in Vienna, basically. The mistake most of non-Turkish German population does is to conflate descendants of Turkish immigrants with Turks from current day Turkey. It's almost like comparing an African-American from Georgia with someone from Nigeria. So, I can totally understand why the parents would want to move to Turkey for their retirement. And to be fair, there are many English and German retired couples who move to Turkey just as they do to Spain or France.
- Udo 11y ago
  > That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. I think the experience of this particular group-based conflict varies wildly depending on life circumstances. In particular, living in a nice neighbourhood and purposefully modelling their lives on middle class Germans, my ex' parents didn't see a lot of conflict or direct hostility. But I can still see how they may have felt isolated or unwelcome in a thousand little ways that simply added up over time. To make it extra clear, in case that didn't come across in my original comment: I totally understand why they're doing this. They probably felt alienated and badly integrated. Heck, I'm a native-born German and I feel culturally alienated too, even though my cultural perspective is entirely different than theirs. If I think Germany is a cold place in general, that impression must be even more amplified from an immigrant's perspective.
  - cm3 11y ago
    To expand on this, it's exactly a thousand little ways that add up. In your day to day business, like an an African American, there is no visible discrimination, but in any case of disagreement one party quickly pulls the you're-from-the-other-tribe card. Goes for both sides. I stood by when a Turkish friend got accused by a German-German to be a sleazy Turk who lives off the state (which he clearly does not), just because he was trying to reach consensus in a conflict. I don't know if I could have stayed calm if it had been me being singled out as a lesser German citizen. In essence, a thousand little and unremarkable experiences do add up, and this is a major reason why the youth would seek refuge in groups that accept them fully but like Neo-Nazi campfire events it's mostly Rattenfaengertum. I like to think it's all because of missing proper education (not mis-education), which has to start with the parents.
    - cm3 11y ago
      Rattenfaengertum is a word which can be summed up with Pied Piper, if you know the story. Sorry to English readers who had been wondering. Ratte = rat, fangen = to catch, tum = utility suffixed almost like dom but more as in ness like somethingness.
  - 11y ago
egeozcan 11y ago
I never felt unwelcome, but I think there are some incompatibilities between German and Turkish cultures (and I would rather not generalize them as Western vs Eastern) which one needs to overcome before feeling totally comfortable. Another reason could be overzealous repetition of the word "integration" making the same effect on immigrants that the word "rule" makes on teenagers. Also, I wouldn't discount monetary, climatic and religious reasons so easily. I'm a theological noncognitivist and have thankfully no serious financial issues but sometimes I think about moving to somewhere with a nicer weather - especially in those depressing-weather days =) The best candidate would be then Spain but well, I really like it here.

roel_v 11y ago

"in my once democratic country" The ironic thing is that a few years ago, when the generals still kept the government in check to ensure the secular nature of the Turkish state, the streak in the European left was "Turkey is not democratic because the military has too much power", and the 2002 reforms were heralded as a major improvement. Something about a frying pan and a fire comes to mind...

egeozcan 11y ago
I actually thought about putting democratic in quotes but then decided that could steer the discussion further off topic. Rest assured that the irony is not lost on me.

wayn3 11y ago

It's really weird to think of you as an expat, because we are used to thinking of the turkish in ways that are improper. Most expats are expats because the grass was greener where they went. Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"? Just using that word makes it seem filthy for people from the middle east to come to europe. How are they different from europeans leaving their countries behind? Language is powerful. Do you feel welcome in germany? Just curious.

egeozcan 11y ago
> Do you feel welcome in Germany? Just curious. Yes. After living even in a "conservative" town, I feel more welcome than I feel in the city I was born - Istanbul. In my first 5 years, I usually had to ask people to speak to me in German, they usually switched to English to make me more comfortable. Sure, I can give many examples of racism but the great thing about Germany is that racists aren't significant threats to my rights as a resident. Also, I think back in Turkey, there were many more cases of racism - it's just that they don't get any attention among "bigger problems" (what being a bigger problem is another topic I'd rather not dig into). After all, I'm happy that here people are ready to discuss such things. > Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"? I would guess if you came here to advance your career, then you are eligible to be an expat. Of course I'm kidding. I think many people, for not-so-evil-but-still-a-bit-disturbing reasons, would not like to be called an immigrant. I actually do not care and am happy with the word.
jacquesm 11y ago
The difference between an 'expat' and an 'immigrant' is that an expat made their choice from a position of strength and an immigrant made their choice from a position of weakness. That's really all there is to it, everything else is exactly the same. Though usually people from wealthy countries would not like to be known as 'immigrants', they are expats, of course.
- melvinmt 11y ago
  It's all relative - I've moved to the US from NL (relatively wealthy I'd say) and I have never considered myself an expat. I'm an immigrant.