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There's a huge elephant in the room for this: IQ testing. Companies get sued if they test for IQ and consider it in their hiring process. On the flip side, IQ i

There's a huge elephant in the room for this: IQ testing. Companies get sued if they test for IQ and consider it in their hiring process. On the flip side, IQ is a very good predictor for job performance, especially for programming. This is a good chunk of why companies do whiteboarding - it's not going to get them sued, and it selects for cleverer people. You know what else selects for cleverer people? SAT scores. Now, companies aren't allowed to ask for SAT scores, but they are allowed to look at what college you went to. So if you know that someone attended MIT or Stanford, you get a pretty gigantic hint about what their IQ is.

gragas 11y ago
Your comment about SAT scores is funny to me because I was just thinking about how untrue it is today. I was one or two questions off of a perfect score, and I'm at an extremely selective school right now. One of my friends didn't score quite as well as me, but really close (read 97th or 98th percentile) and I would not trust him with my life to write any program. We both are CS majors, granted he goes to a different school. In all honesty, I think SAT scores have less correlation with IQ and general intuition than most people believe. Sure, it's a decent way to weed people out, but it is by no means a way to find geniuses.
- jkchu 11y ago
  To be fair, someone's inability to write a program does not mean that they cannot be a genius. Perhaps your friend has other areas of interest/talent. I would say that performance on standardized tests is a test of two things: 1) hard work and preparation and/or 2) Intelligence in the concepts or subjects being tested.
el_benhameen 11y ago
I think an assertion that large (that IQ test scores correlate strongly with better job performance) needs some sources to back it up. I'm not saying they're not there, but I'd like to see them. There's a lot more to overall job performance than ability to reason about complex programming problems. As a counterpoint, a Google HR SVP says in an article referenced elsewhere in the comments [0] that they don't ask for G.P.A's and test scores anymore because they're "worthless — no correlation at all except for brand-new college grads, where there’s a slight correlation". [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-big-data-may-not-be-such-a-big-deal.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-b...
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  That was a famous result Google published. The finding is based on their study of their existing employees. Similarly, the correlation between height and basketball ability is attenuated for people who are currently NBA players. But it's quite strong for people overall.
- ThrustVectoring 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_perf... I don't have access to the works that Wikipedia cites, but the correlation is positive and between 0.2 and 0.6 for every job studied. And I agree, there are a lot more things that influence job performance. IQ probably isn't the most important thing - a malicious programmer can cause millions of dollars worth of damage, so probably the most important thing is trustworthiness. That said, learning about someone's IQ helps you predict their future job performance, basically regardless of what job you are talking about.
  - el_benhameen 11y ago
    Very interesting, thanks for the cite. I think it's important to note that those figures are for "hiring employees without previous experience in the job" because "It is largely through the quicker acquisition of job-relevant knowledge that higher IQ mediates job performance." So you'll acquire new skills more quickly if you have a higher IQ, which makes sense, but if you have two people at the same apparent skill level applying for a non-entry-level position, IQ may well not be (or may well be) a valid means of deciding between the two. This jives fairly well with the quote from Google.
acscott 11y ago
Feynman said he scored 124 on an IQ test. IQ is not a good predictor for the kinds of meritorious achievement that SV mythologically prefers. Once you get lucky at findind the gold mine, you want people who are best trained in mining. That pretty much sums it up. But probably more apropos, the laws for H1-B and other hiring processes make it such that you don't want to have any hint of impropriety that would convince a judge the plaintiff would even have a case. Once the judge rules there's a case, you pretty much open up your bank account and settle. Then there's the counter, if you're so awesome why aren't you my competitor?
akhilcacharya 11y ago
Some companies do ask for SAT scores. Some financial Firms in particular do (IIRC) as well as math competition ranks and the like.
coroxout 11y ago
I'm guessing (say) Ivy dropouts have SAT scores in roughly the same range as Ivy graduates but are less employable because of the whole thing of a degree showing that you can stick with something and do what's asked of you for 3-4+ years. So it isn't solely a proxy for asking IQ/SAT scores. (I'm a dropout, though not from an Ivy, and that's definitely something I've had to do a lot of explaining of in every interview I've had. Haven't been on the market for a few years; if there really is a magical age where people stop caring about degrees, I look forward to reaching it.)

gragas 11y ago

Your comment about SAT scores is funny to me because I was just thinking about how untrue it is today. I was one or two questions off of a perfect score, and I'm at an extremely selective school right now. One of my friends didn't score quite as well as me, but really close (read 97th or 98th percentile) and I would not trust him with my life to write any program. We both are CS majors, granted he goes to a different school. In all honesty, I think SAT scores have less correlation with IQ and general intuition than most people believe. Sure, it's a decent way to weed people out, but it is by no means a way to find geniuses.

jkchu 11y ago
To be fair, someone's inability to write a program does not mean that they cannot be a genius. Perhaps your friend has other areas of interest/talent. I would say that performance on standardized tests is a test of two things: 1) hard work and preparation and/or 2) Intelligence in the concepts or subjects being tested.

el_benhameen 11y ago

I think an assertion that large (that IQ test scores correlate strongly with better job performance) needs some sources to back it up. I'm not saying they're not there, but I'd like to see them. There's a lot more to overall job performance than ability to reason about complex programming problems. As a counterpoint, a Google HR SVP says in an article referenced elsewhere in the comments [0] that they don't ask for G.P.A's and test scores anymore because they're "worthless — no correlation at all except for brand-new college grads, where there’s a slight correlation". [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-big-data-may-not-be-such-a-big-deal.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-b...

thaumasiotes 11y ago
That was a famous result Google published. The finding is based on their study of their existing employees. Similarly, the correlation between height and basketball ability is attenuated for people who are currently NBA players. But it's quite strong for people overall.
ThrustVectoring 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_perf... I don't have access to the works that Wikipedia cites, but the correlation is positive and between 0.2 and 0.6 for every job studied. And I agree, there are a lot more things that influence job performance. IQ probably isn't the most important thing - a malicious programmer can cause millions of dollars worth of damage, so probably the most important thing is trustworthiness. That said, learning about someone's IQ helps you predict their future job performance, basically regardless of what job you are talking about.
- el_benhameen 11y ago
  Very interesting, thanks for the cite. I think it's important to note that those figures are for "hiring employees without previous experience in the job" because "It is largely through the quicker acquisition of job-relevant knowledge that higher IQ mediates job performance." So you'll acquire new skills more quickly if you have a higher IQ, which makes sense, but if you have two people at the same apparent skill level applying for a non-entry-level position, IQ may well not be (or may well be) a valid means of deciding between the two. This jives fairly well with the quote from Google.

acscott 11y ago

Feynman said he scored 124 on an IQ test. IQ is not a good predictor for the kinds of meritorious achievement that SV mythologically prefers. Once you get lucky at findind the gold mine, you want people who are best trained in mining. That pretty much sums it up. But probably more apropos, the laws for H1-B and other hiring processes make it such that you don't want to have any hint of impropriety that would convince a judge the plaintiff would even have a case. Once the judge rules there's a case, you pretty much open up your bank account and settle. Then there's the counter, if you're so awesome why aren't you my competitor?

akhilcacharya 11y ago

Some companies do ask for SAT scores. Some financial Firms in particular do (IIRC) as well as math competition ranks and the like.

coroxout 11y ago

I'm guessing (say) Ivy dropouts have SAT scores in roughly the same range as Ivy graduates but are less employable because of the whole thing of a degree showing that you can stick with something and do what's asked of you for 3-4+ years. So it isn't solely a proxy for asking IQ/SAT scores. (I'm a dropout, though not from an Ivy, and that's definitely something I've had to do a lot of explaining of in every interview I've had. Haven't been on the market for a few years; if there really is a magical age where people stop caring about degrees, I look forward to reaching it.)