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I always love this argument, the NSA routinely uses it in Court to eliminate any challenge based on Standing Since the NSA will never admit they violated the

I always love this argument, the NSA routinely uses it in Court to eliminate any challenge based on Standing Since the NSA will never admit they violated the constitution, no one can get discovery to prove they did, thus they will never be held to account. The very Nature of "national security" and the ability of the government to literally make everything including the price they pay for a hammer a matter of "national security" and hide these things under the impenetrable cloak of that claim is a major damn problem. As to the charge they have "disappeared" people, given we know 100% factually that the CIA perpetrated immoral renditions for the purposes of torturing people "legally" I fail to see why you do not believe other branches of the government did not follow the same play book Hell they have admitted to executing US Citizens with out trial... I do not believe there is anything they will not do.

snowwrestler 11y ago
I'd be very interested in a story about a technology device manufacturer employee--a U.S. citizen--who was disappeared by the U.S. federal government for discussing a national security letter or any other attempt to access information. I've never heard of one, or even the allegation of one.
- the_ancient 11y ago
  Even if someone would present such a case there would be soo little tangible evidence and many other "more plausible" theories as to why the person disappeared it would be simply dismissed as a conspiracy People want to reject the idea their government is immoral, so they do...
  - bcook 11y ago
    Most respectable people are reliable and have numerous responsibilities. If such a person disappears, people would notice... many people.
    - the_ancient 11y ago
      I am sure they would... At any given time there are ~90,000 people missing in the US, annually something like 250,000 missing person cases are opened. The charge is not that they would be disappeared and no one would miss them...
      - bcook 11y ago
        Clarification: I said that somebody would notice, not that somebody would care. (fact vs emotion) Cite your source. I am skeptical by relying on the "six degrees of separation" theory... I literally know nobody who has ever known anyone (etc) that has been "disappeared".
        the_ancient 11y ago
        >>Clarification: I said that somebody would notice, not that somebody would care. Then I fail to see what your point it, the entire point of "someone would notice" would imply that would be a deterrent to prevent or give pause to the US Government disappearing someone. This would necessitate people caring. Further, in order for many many people to notice like you said, a good portion of them must care enough to spread that info.. Unless you are thinking the only people that would be disappeared would be someone like Tim Cook, or other High Level person, no it more likely would be some unnamed programmer, or researcher.. not a CEO of a Fortune 100 company who is of no actual value to the US Government. >>Cite your source. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/09/23/missing-persons-children-numbers/16110709/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/09/23/mis... >>I literally know nobody who has ever known anyone (etc) that has been "disappeared". Are you saying people do not disappear.. Government connection not with standing? All of the missing persons world wide are simply false?
- 0xcde4c3db 11y ago
  Agreed. The documented style of the modern US national security complex isn't so much to disappear citizens, but rather to explicitly and proudly assert the authority to suspend the 5th amendment and assassinate them [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing#United_S...
- vvanders 11y ago
  Not quite disappears but I think the lavabit case is a good example of not being able to talk about anything.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  "Disappearing" people isn't really the style of the US government. That's common in South America and was regularly used in the old USSR. The US prefers to discredit people in the media as "terrorists" (or "gang members", etc) while throwing an unwinnable pile of charges at them to force a confession (aka "plea bargain"). This have the de facto result of keeping someone either in jail for a while or spending 100% of their time and money on defense. Regardless of how it turns out, draconian probation requirements, pre-employment questions in the style of "have you been charged with a felony" and the arrest and/or criminal record are very effective at finishing the job of "disappearing" someone with unemployment and the social isolation that happens when someone's reputation is trashed. In many states, you can add long-term or permanent disenfranchisement. The tactics everyone should be paying attention are closer to COINTELPRO, where key people are removed from potential positions of leadership or organization before they accumulate larger amounts of power. With a mass surveillance network and storage that lets you search through someone's past, parallel construction to remove someone on any kind of trumped up charge is easy.
  - snowwrestler 11y ago
    > The US prefers to discredit people in the media as "terrorists" (or "gang members", etc) while throwing an unwinnable pile of charges at them to force a confession (aka "plea bargain"). This have the de facto result of keeping someone either in jail for a while or spending 100% of their time and money on defense. Can you share an example of this happening to someone who works at a technology device manufacturer? Someone who was in a position to be aware of an NSL that they could spill the beans on?
    - pdkl95 11y ago
      > technology device manufacturer That isn't the only industry that can be subject to a NSL. We are lucky to have any of the information at all; if you limit your search to very-specific categories, you risk finding areas that have less public data. I would start here: https://www.aclu.org/cases/doe-v-holder https://www.aclu.org/cases/doe-v-holder
      - 11y ago
bduerst 11y ago
The NSA is signals intelligence and while they do tap your internet [1], they don't abduct humans. By your logic, the coast guard is also making citizens "disappear". You've been watching way too many movies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
- the_ancient 11y ago
  No one claimed the NSA does (although I do not personally believe they are only SigInt) The claim was "US Govt.", NSA was only used in reference to law suits where they use national security to get cases tossed.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

snowwrestler 11y ago

I'd be very interested in a story about a technology device manufacturer employee--a U.S. citizen--who was disappeared by the U.S. federal government for discussing a national security letter or any other attempt to access information. I've never heard of one, or even the allegation of one.

the_ancient 11y ago
Even if someone would present such a case there would be soo little tangible evidence and many other "more plausible" theories as to why the person disappeared it would be simply dismissed as a conspiracy People want to reject the idea their government is immoral, so they do...
- bcook 11y ago
  Most respectable people are reliable and have numerous responsibilities. If such a person disappears, people would notice... many people.
  - the_ancient 11y ago
    I am sure they would... At any given time there are ~90,000 people missing in the US, annually something like 250,000 missing person cases are opened. The charge is not that they would be disappeared and no one would miss them...
    - bcook 11y ago
      Clarification: I said that somebody would notice, not that somebody would care. (fact vs emotion) Cite your source. I am skeptical by relying on the "six degrees of separation" theory... I literally know nobody who has ever known anyone (etc) that has been "disappeared".
      - the_ancient 11y ago
        >>Clarification: I said that somebody would notice, not that somebody would care. Then I fail to see what your point it, the entire point of "someone would notice" would imply that would be a deterrent to prevent or give pause to the US Government disappearing someone. This would necessitate people caring. Further, in order for many many people to notice like you said, a good portion of them must care enough to spread that info.. Unless you are thinking the only people that would be disappeared would be someone like Tim Cook, or other High Level person, no it more likely would be some unnamed programmer, or researcher.. not a CEO of a Fortune 100 company who is of no actual value to the US Government. >>Cite your source. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/09/23/missing-persons-children-numbers/16110709/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/09/23/mis... >>I literally know nobody who has ever known anyone (etc) that has been "disappeared". Are you saying people do not disappear.. Government connection not with standing? All of the missing persons world wide are simply false?
0xcde4c3db 11y ago
Agreed. The documented style of the modern US national security complex isn't so much to disappear citizens, but rather to explicitly and proudly assert the authority to suspend the 5th amendment and assassinate them [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing#United_S...
vvanders 11y ago
Not quite disappears but I think the lavabit case is a good example of not being able to talk about anything.
pdkl95 11y ago
"Disappearing" people isn't really the style of the US government. That's common in South America and was regularly used in the old USSR. The US prefers to discredit people in the media as "terrorists" (or "gang members", etc) while throwing an unwinnable pile of charges at them to force a confession (aka "plea bargain"). This have the de facto result of keeping someone either in jail for a while or spending 100% of their time and money on defense. Regardless of how it turns out, draconian probation requirements, pre-employment questions in the style of "have you been charged with a felony" and the arrest and/or criminal record are very effective at finishing the job of "disappearing" someone with unemployment and the social isolation that happens when someone's reputation is trashed. In many states, you can add long-term or permanent disenfranchisement. The tactics everyone should be paying attention are closer to COINTELPRO, where key people are removed from potential positions of leadership or organization before they accumulate larger amounts of power. With a mass surveillance network and storage that lets you search through someone's past, parallel construction to remove someone on any kind of trumped up charge is easy.
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  > The US prefers to discredit people in the media as "terrorists" (or "gang members", etc) while throwing an unwinnable pile of charges at them to force a confession (aka "plea bargain"). This have the de facto result of keeping someone either in jail for a while or spending 100% of their time and money on defense. Can you share an example of this happening to someone who works at a technology device manufacturer? Someone who was in a position to be aware of an NSL that they could spill the beans on?
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    > technology device manufacturer That isn't the only industry that can be subject to a NSL. We are lucky to have any of the information at all; if you limit your search to very-specific categories, you risk finding areas that have less public data. I would start here: https://www.aclu.org/cases/doe-v-holder https://www.aclu.org/cases/doe-v-holder
    - 11y ago

bduerst 11y ago

The NSA is signals intelligence and while they do tap your internet [1], they don't abduct humans. By your logic, the coast guard is also making citizens "disappear". You've been watching way too many movies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

the_ancient 11y ago
No one claimed the NSA does (although I do not personally believe they are only SigInt) The claim was "US Govt.", NSA was only used in reference to law suits where they use national security to get cases tossed.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]