9 ms·

Zen Magnets Wins CPSC Case

103 points by nathannecro 11y ago

wutf 11y ago
If they win all appeals, can they sue the government for lost revenue?
- joering2 11y ago
  My limited knowledge of TPP laws says they could, but they would have to prove they been selling them successfully in other countries without Gov interruption and based their claim $ on other markets to relate to claimed damage.
  - the_ancient 11y ago
    TPP is not law. TPP is a proposed treaty that is far far far from being ratified and hopefully never does. Even if ratified today, I doubt Zen could use it as it was not law at the time of the action.
    - hga 11y ago
      And for this sort of thing it won't become law even if ratified without enabling legislation, but such legislation WRT to lawsuits could be retroactive and the powerful plaintiff's bar would undoubtedly be delighted if that were to happen.
- DannyBee 11y ago
  Generally? No. When it comes to suing the US (or a state), just remember the default answer is "you can't sue the US" (or a state), and every other case is an explicit congressional exception, like the federal tort claims act, etc. (see, generally, https://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art3frag41_user.html#art3_hd119 https://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art3frag41_user.html...)
  - trsohmers 11y ago
    My grandfather was actually the first person to sue the US government (and particularly interesting for this case, it was against the CPSC) and have it actually come to vote in congress. My grandfather was the president of Marlin Toy Company, and in 1972 the CPSC mistakenly kept one of its products (the Flutter Ball) on the banned products list, and they refused to fix it until the next version of the list came out. Surprisingly I can't find much on the case online (Some links below), and my Grandfather doesn't like to talk about it too much (though I have a box of legal documents from the case plus some articles). You can find more by looking up Edward Sohmers and the Marlin Toy Company. https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal75-1211392 https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal75... https://books.google.com/books?id=cyU_fdnWhD8C&pg=PA22550&lpg=PA22550&dq=Marlin+Toy+company+sohmers&source=bl&ots=EX3WNJmmBI&sig=BZwSCWle-ZV05fMY9zj9eQk_DQ0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiukN-V-enLAhVC5WMKHRVEAbkQ6AEILDAD#v=onepage&q=Marlin%20Toy%20company%20sohmers&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=cyU_fdnWhD8C&pg=PA22550&lp...
deelowe 11y ago
Awesome for them!
trhway 11y ago
while "war on magnets" may sound silly at first, it is hard to not see the rationale behind it. https://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/federal-advocacy/Pages/AAP-Alerts-Pediatricians-to-Dangers-of-Magnet-Ingestions.aspx https://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/federal-advoca... " Although these products are labeled and designed for adults, they can easily find their way into the hands and mouths of children." Also a fact sheet from the North American Society for Pediatric Gastroenterology, Hepatology and Nutrition - http://www.naspghan.org/files/documents/pdfs/advocacy/2013/NASPGHAN%20Magnet%20Ingestion%20Fact%20Sheet%202013.pdf http://www.naspghan.org/files/documents/pdfs/advocacy/2013/N... I mean nobody keeps rat poison in the open on the desk. If you look at statistics (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24791640 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24791640 - quarter of the cases require intervention, and half of those cases are small magnets) the swallowing of those magnets somewhat comparable to swallowing of a rat poison (out of about 10K+ cases/years, about 1/3 is treated medically). And there are those fury curious vacuums that only look like a labrador or a poodle - one can only hope that their owners pay enough attention.
- dublinben 11y ago
  >" Although these products are labeled and designed for adults, they can easily find their way into the hands and mouths of children." By that argument, any and all potentially dangerous products must be banned. No power tools, firearms, knives, lighters, or small pieces of matter may be legally sold or possessed in the United States.
  - trhway 11y ago
    man, i understand your logic, and i many cases i follow it myself. In this case the court is on your side, so not sure that me have much new to explore, i just wanted to mention the [failed] arguments of the other side that i'm sympathetic to in this case. I'm not against those magnets personally and think they should be available, it is just the situation that millions people have them lying around is really a danger. Not sure what can be done to make the situation great for everybody. At least in case of firearms, while they are available, they aren't just lying around easily accessible to children. Power tools, knives, lighters - it has been always, even in childhood, pretty much clear how they do the damage and how to handle them safely. Imagine though a power tool with non-widely known, say surprising, mode of injuring people, and i bet we'd see a bunch of such new injuries and probably the tool will be banned. And this one http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/florida-mom-facebook-child-shooting-accident http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/florida-mom-face... . Not for debating the 2nd (i myself think that the language of the 2nd is clear in actually granting one freedom to have even nukes). Just find it very illustrative that while firearms should be available (as 2nd states), some people just shouldn't have it. Again, have no idea how to implement it.
beambot 11y ago
It says you still can't buy Zen Magnets due to nationwide import ban.... so why not just start producing them domestically in the US?
- omgwin 11y ago
  It's an import and manufacturing ban. https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/10/03/2014-23341/final-rule-safety-standard-for-magnet-sets https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/10/03/2014-233... I think the manufacturing part wasn't mentioned because it's not really feasible to mine neodymium in the US.
cmcnally 11y ago
Good for them! I used to have some similar magnets around my office. I can't recall the brand. The only issue I had with them was that the outer plating of the magnets would wear off very easily and made a huge mess. Did anyone else have this problem?
- covercash 11y ago
  Likely Buckyballs. Here's Zen Magnet's video comparing quality: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Tka4NUmUo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Tka4NUmUo
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103 points by nathannecro 11y ago

wutf 11y ago

If they win all appeals, can they sue the government for lost revenue?

joering2 11y ago
My limited knowledge of TPP laws says they could, but they would have to prove they been selling them successfully in other countries without Gov interruption and based their claim $ on other markets to relate to claimed damage.
- the_ancient 11y ago
  TPP is not law. TPP is a proposed treaty that is far far far from being ratified and hopefully never does. Even if ratified today, I doubt Zen could use it as it was not law at the time of the action.
  - hga 11y ago
    And for this sort of thing it won't become law even if ratified without enabling legislation, but such legislation WRT to lawsuits could be retroactive and the powerful plaintiff's bar would undoubtedly be delighted if that were to happen.
DannyBee 11y ago
Generally? No. When it comes to suing the US (or a state), just remember the default answer is "you can't sue the US" (or a state), and every other case is an explicit congressional exception, like the federal tort claims act, etc. (see, generally, https://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art3frag41_user.html#art3_hd119 https://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art3frag41_user.html...)
- trsohmers 11y ago
  My grandfather was actually the first person to sue the US government (and particularly interesting for this case, it was against the CPSC) and have it actually come to vote in congress. My grandfather was the president of Marlin Toy Company, and in 1972 the CPSC mistakenly kept one of its products (the Flutter Ball) on the banned products list, and they refused to fix it until the next version of the list came out. Surprisingly I can't find much on the case online (Some links below), and my Grandfather doesn't like to talk about it too much (though I have a box of legal documents from the case plus some articles). You can find more by looking up Edward Sohmers and the Marlin Toy Company. https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal75-1211392 https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal75... https://books.google.com/books?id=cyU_fdnWhD8C&pg=PA22550&lpg=PA22550&dq=Marlin+Toy+company+sohmers&source=bl&ots=EX3WNJmmBI&sig=BZwSCWle-ZV05fMY9zj9eQk_DQ0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiukN-V-enLAhVC5WMKHRVEAbkQ6AEILDAD#v=onepage&q=Marlin%20Toy%20company%20sohmers&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=cyU_fdnWhD8C&pg=PA22550&lp...

deelowe 11y ago

Awesome for them!

trhway 11y ago

while "war on magnets" may sound silly at first, it is hard to not see the rationale behind it. https://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/federal-advocacy/Pages/AAP-Alerts-Pediatricians-to-Dangers-of-Magnet-Ingestions.aspx https://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/federal-advoca... " Although these products are labeled and designed for adults, they can easily find their way into the hands and mouths of children." Also a fact sheet from the North American Society for Pediatric Gastroenterology, Hepatology and Nutrition - http://www.naspghan.org/files/documents/pdfs/advocacy/2013/NASPGHAN%20Magnet%20Ingestion%20Fact%20Sheet%202013.pdf http://www.naspghan.org/files/documents/pdfs/advocacy/2013/N... I mean nobody keeps rat poison in the open on the desk. If you look at statistics (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24791640 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24791640 - quarter of the cases require intervention, and half of those cases are small magnets) the swallowing of those magnets somewhat comparable to swallowing of a rat poison (out of about 10K+ cases/years, about 1/3 is treated medically). And there are those fury curious vacuums that only look like a labrador or a poodle - one can only hope that their owners pay enough attention.

dublinben 11y ago
>" Although these products are labeled and designed for adults, they can easily find their way into the hands and mouths of children." By that argument, any and all potentially dangerous products must be banned. No power tools, firearms, knives, lighters, or small pieces of matter may be legally sold or possessed in the United States.
- trhway 11y ago
  man, i understand your logic, and i many cases i follow it myself. In this case the court is on your side, so not sure that me have much new to explore, i just wanted to mention the [failed] arguments of the other side that i'm sympathetic to in this case. I'm not against those magnets personally and think they should be available, it is just the situation that millions people have them lying around is really a danger. Not sure what can be done to make the situation great for everybody. At least in case of firearms, while they are available, they aren't just lying around easily accessible to children. Power tools, knives, lighters - it has been always, even in childhood, pretty much clear how they do the damage and how to handle them safely. Imagine though a power tool with non-widely known, say surprising, mode of injuring people, and i bet we'd see a bunch of such new injuries and probably the tool will be banned. And this one http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/florida-mom-facebook-child-shooting-accident http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/florida-mom-face... . Not for debating the 2nd (i myself think that the language of the 2nd is clear in actually granting one freedom to have even nukes). Just find it very illustrative that while firearms should be available (as 2nd states), some people just shouldn't have it. Again, have no idea how to implement it.

beambot 11y ago

It says you still can't buy Zen Magnets due to nationwide import ban.... so why not just start producing them domestically in the US?

omgwin 11y ago
It's an import and manufacturing ban. https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/10/03/2014-23341/final-rule-safety-standard-for-magnet-sets https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/10/03/2014-233... I think the manufacturing part wasn't mentioned because it's not really feasible to mine neodymium in the US.

cmcnally 11y ago

Good for them! I used to have some similar magnets around my office. I can't recall the brand. The only issue I had with them was that the outer plating of the magnets would wear off very easily and made a huge mess. Did anyone else have this problem?

covercash 11y ago
Likely Buckyballs. Here's Zen Magnet's video comparing quality: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Tka4NUmUo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Tka4NUmUo

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