3 ms·

One of my coworkers is from MS and worked on the Android apps on Windows project. This comes out of that cancelled work: It's a full implementation of Linux sys

One of my coworkers is from MS and worked on the Android apps on Windows project. This comes out of that cancelled work: It's a full implementation of Linux syscalls in user mode that registers a driver to perform kernel-mode tasks on behalf of the subsystem. The NT kernel has always been fairly agnostic and not tied specifically to Win32; it originally had an OS/2 text-mode and POSIX subsystem in addition to Win32. The NT kernel even uses a Unix-like "\\?\" root filesystem where disks, kernel objects, sockets, etc are mounted. From what I can gather Microsoft is paying Canonical to help with a few user-mode bits and the Windows apt-get stuff uses the official Canonical sources. As I said to him: "NT is the only major OS I know of that has always had personality subsystems. Cutler’s vision finally pays off after 3 decades of waiting"

nbevans 11y ago
I love your last paragraph. Exactly what I was thinking. NT Subsystems were its party trick and its taken far too long for them to be introduced on the grand stage. I bet Dave Cutler is smiling his face off!
keithpeter 11y ago
Thankyou for this concise summary. Much clearer now.
bitcrazed 11y ago
Close, except ... There is NO Windows "apt-get stuff" - it's just apt-get. From Ubuntu.
beagle3 11y ago
> "NT is the only major OS I know of that has always had personality subsystems." In what way is a "subsystem" different than a "library" or a "process" or a "driver" (if it runs in kernel space)? Any process can use the native API. What's special about a "subsystem"?
vram22 11y ago
What was his vision? I know that Dave Cutler was heavily involved in designing NT, and was earlier the same with DEC VMS. (Had read the book Inside Windows NT.) But don't know what vision you refer to. Was it about the personality subsystems?
- ch_123 11y ago
  Before leaving for MS, Cutler worked on an OS codenamed "Mica" which ran on top of an architecture named PRISM (which was a predecessor to the Alpha). The idea behind Mica was that it was a microkernel which hosted VMS and Unix personalities on top. It is widely claimed and believed that when he moved with his team to MS that he reimplemented Mica as the NT kernel. http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/prism/mica/ http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/prism/mica/
JdeBP 11y ago
> "Cutler’s vision finally pays off after 3 decades of waiting." Quite! But only because the Interix-derived POSIX subsytem was, and is, little-known and vastly underappreciated. Had it been better known, the payoff might have come a decade or more sooner. There are a fair number of questions being asked now, about the new Linux subsystem, where the answer is "No; but the old POSIX subsystem had that.". * Does it support pseudo-terminals? No, according to the demonstration video; but the old POSIX subsystem did. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415843) * Does it let you kill Win32 processes? No; but the old POSIX subsystem did. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415872) * Does it support managing daemons? No; but the old POSIX subsystem did. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376) * Does it support GUI programs? No (say the people behind it themselves, although I suspect that it could run X clients); but the old POSIX subsystem did. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11391961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11391961) (https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/bb463223.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/bb463223.aspx)
- dwm 11y ago
  I remember having a Microsoft developer (I'm afraid I forget her name — Six?) come and visit us several years ago to demonstrate the then-new SFU 3.0. Seeing her send SIGSTOP to a running MSWORD.EXE process and observe it stop updating its window in response to expose events was splendid. :-)

nbevans 11y ago

I love your last paragraph. Exactly what I was thinking. NT Subsystems were its party trick and its taken far too long for them to be introduced on the grand stage. I bet Dave Cutler is smiling his face off!

keithpeter 11y ago

Thankyou for this concise summary. Much clearer now.

bitcrazed 11y ago

Close, except ... There is NO Windows "apt-get stuff" - it's just apt-get. From Ubuntu.

beagle3 11y ago

> "NT is the only major OS I know of that has always had personality subsystems." In what way is a "subsystem" different than a "library" or a "process" or a "driver" (if it runs in kernel space)? Any process can use the native API. What's special about a "subsystem"?

vram22 11y ago

What was his vision? I know that Dave Cutler was heavily involved in designing NT, and was earlier the same with DEC VMS. (Had read the book Inside Windows NT.) But don't know what vision you refer to. Was it about the personality subsystems?

ch_123 11y ago
Before leaving for MS, Cutler worked on an OS codenamed "Mica" which ran on top of an architecture named PRISM (which was a predecessor to the Alpha). The idea behind Mica was that it was a microkernel which hosted VMS and Unix personalities on top. It is widely claimed and believed that when he moved with his team to MS that he reimplemented Mica as the NT kernel. http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/prism/mica/ http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/dec/prism/mica/

JdeBP 11y ago

> "Cutler’s vision finally pays off after 3 decades of waiting." Quite! But only because the Interix-derived POSIX subsytem was, and is, little-known and vastly underappreciated. Had it been better known, the payoff might have come a decade or more sooner. There are a fair number of questions being asked now, about the new Linux subsystem, where the answer is "No; but the old POSIX subsystem had that.". * Does it support pseudo-terminals? No, according to the demonstration video; but the old POSIX subsystem did. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415843) * Does it let you kill Win32 processes? No; but the old POSIX subsystem did. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11415872) * Does it support managing daemons? No; but the old POSIX subsystem did. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376) * Does it support GUI programs? No (say the people behind it themselves, although I suspect that it could run X clients); but the old POSIX subsystem did. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11391961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11391961) (https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/bb463223.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/bb463223.aspx)

dwm 11y ago
I remember having a Microsoft developer (I'm afraid I forget her name — Six?) come and visit us several years ago to demonstrate the then-new SFU 3.0. Seeing her send SIGSTOP to a running MSWORD.EXE process and observe it stop updating its window in response to expose events was splendid. :-)