5 ms·

What ever happened to programs? Was there something about that word that terribly offended people? Too hard to type out? Is 'app' soon going to be replaced by s

What ever happened to programs? Was there something about that word that terribly offended people? Too hard to type out? Is 'app' soon going to be replaced by some kind of pictogram? Enquiring minds want to know.

UK-AL 11y ago
Laziness?
guardian5x 11y ago
App is shorter than Application or Program. Language evolves as well.
jamesdwilson 11y ago
App implies microsoft gets a monopoly on control and distribution (as well as revocation), ie app store, ie walled garden. It also implies you should expect it to not be open source, and you should expect to pay at least $0.99 for it.
- wlesieutre 11y ago
  You can distribute universal Windows apps outside the Windows Store.
  - ant6n 11y ago
    You mean programs?
    - wlesieutre 11y ago
      No, I mean apps. I'm just as lazy as anybody else, and I don't see a need to use an older word with an extra syllable and a bunch of baggage just to show off that I was using computers before the iPhone came out. If they were distributed as .programx files instead of .appx files, maybe you'd have a point.
      - ant6n 11y ago
        So when the IPhone came out, the word 'program' was changed to 'app'?
        grokys 11y ago
        Even before the iPhone came out, people used the abbreviation "app" for "application". Source: I was around then ;)
        ant6n 11y ago
        But did they use "app" instead of "program"?
        wlesieutre 11y ago
        True, especially with OS X having .app file extensions. I still called them "Applications" more often than not though.
        ant6n 11y ago
        Oh, so it's like a Mac thing. So why do we have to call Windows programs 'App'?
        icebraining 11y ago
        It's not a Mac-only thing, it has been used on Linux and Windows for decades. http://www.drdobbs.com/windows/windows-apps-and-exception-handlers/184409706 http://www.drdobbs.com/windows/windows-apps-and-exception-ha...
        wlesieutre 11y ago
        In popular usage, pretty much. I'd object more if it were something like "nuculer" where we're adding in wrong letters to pronounce it wrong, but I really don't care if something is an "app" or a "program". As far as connotations go, "app" tends to mean a simple single-purpose piece of software, and "program" is an all encompassing legacy blob that takes a dump in 40 different folders because it can't keep its shit together. Not always true, but still what I think of. I tend to use the words that way when the software in question falls into one category or the other. Will I call Forza an app because it's on the store? Eh, maybe. I'll probably call it a game (does anybody call those "programs"?). Would I call AutoCAD an app if they started distributing it as a UWP package? Less certain. Maybe not. Skype? Absolutely.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    If your customers check a setting called “side-loading” in "Updates & Security" under "For developers" with a fairly scary warning, then yes you can sell outside the Windows Store.
    - madspindel 11y ago
      Nope. Now you can double-click the appx file. Demonstrated on Build keynote.
      - protomyth 11y ago
        Well, that's a whole lot nicer than their website is currently telling me. I did look for updated instructions as this has been a bit of issue with contractor supplied software.
    - anonymfus 11y ago
      These settings are about digital signatures of applications.
  - mrec 11y ago
    Yes, they've been trailing that for a while. Do you know if there's any kind of legally-binding commitment to keep this option open, or might this be a temporary thing while they try to get some traction for the platform?
    - wlesieutre 11y ago
      I'm sure it's not legally binding, but neither is Apple's letting people run unsigned applications or even signed applications from outside the app store. MS seems pretty serious about trying to get developers on board with their platform. I can't imagine them reversing course on this, especially with "Tim Sweeney is wrong about everything, UWP is an open platform" being a recurring subtext of the keynote.
diskcat 11y ago
program is kinda hard to say because of the 2 r's.
mikeash 11y ago
You're decades late on this. "App" has been used as a shorthand way to refer to programs for a loooong time. Random example, Apple had an object oriented framework called MacApp in 1985.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  But outside of the Apple world program was most commonly used. It took the rise of the iPhone for app to displace program.
- hydromet 11y ago
  This makes sense. The tight knit NeXT community used the "app" meme regularly staring at least in 1990 if not sooner.
- khedoros 11y ago
  To me, "app" was just short for "application", and it usually implied something more than a program. A program was more of an individual binary and its data files. An application could be a suite of programs; basically, it was a superset of "program" that could include multiple binaries acting toward a common purpose. An "App" (mobile-style) is a new word. It implies (again, to me) a sandboxed program with a simplified, single-window, full-screen UI. The same 3 letters (app) have been used my entire life to refer to computer programs, but the connotation has shifted a lot.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    It seems pretty constant to me. It has always meant a user-facing program that's largely self-contained. It's not synonymous with "program," but since this story is about converting stuff for the Windows Store, I think it's being used correctly here.
nothrabannosir 11y ago
Whitelisting permissions instead of blacklisting them, hopefully. As far as I know, that is the main difference: apps are sandboxed programs which you can easily install and deinstall without affecting the rest of the system. Or...?
notatoad 11y ago
In my mind an app is a sandboxed, focused thing that lives in a single window and behind a single launcher icon. application or program or any other older term from before iOS introduced "apps" could be a collection of a half-dozen different entries in your start menu, or an application like GIMP that scatters a bunch of different windows around your screen. "App" implies a level of simplicity.
- bitwize 11y ago
  App has been short for "application" since at least the DOS days, when Lotus 1-2-3 was frequently called the PC's "killer app".
  - notatoad 11y ago
    yes, but the meaning of words can change over time.
bradford 11y ago
(disclaimer, I'm a Microsoft employee and this is only my opinion). There's an important distinction which often don't see discussed when this topic comes up: It can be very dangerous to install a program on your machine, but an 'app' comes with some assurance. People often think of the app store as a method for MS to grab your money, but in my opinion it fixes many of the installation/deployment problems that have existed on windows since... 95? 'Programs' typically require an MSI for installation. You'd better know, and trust, the MSI before you give it the required administrative privileges it needs to run, because a rogue MSI can absolutely own your machine. On the other hand, 'Apps' declare what they are going to do to your machine via the manifest, so you kind of know what you are getting into before your install. The apps are sandboxed, so they have limited ability to tamper with your machine, and they can be uninstalled in a more uniform fashion. In short, I feel much better telling my Grandma that she can install an 'App', but i'm much less confident telling her that it's ok to install a program via Installer.MSI.
- bradleyjg 11y ago
  This sounds nice and reasonable, but I think it's a post hoc explanation that doesn't quite work. Look at the language in the linked article. It talks about converting my "Win32 apps" into "Universal Windows Platform apps". But those legacy programs aren't "apps" within the meaning you've laid out.
  - bradford 11y ago
    I'll confess ignorance over what exactly the converter does, or how it does it. I don't know anything more than what was announced today. The article says that it converts win32/.net apps into appx packages, and I'd assume that this does encompass 'the meaning that I've laid out'.
    - tstrimple 11y ago
      It does. It sandboxes the filesystem and registry as well.
  - Eyas 11y ago
ioab 11y ago
A couple of days ago, I was thinking how rare we use program word now. web apps, mobile apps, standalone apps...
doener 11y ago
In Germany by the way "app" almost always means "mobile app", while desktop apps are still being called "Programme" aka programs in English.
stuaxo 11y ago
Fairly sure it is just short for application. They used to be called apps when we made them for J2ME phones. Symbian apps were not sandboxed, but J2ME ones were, and this was the majority. Later on apple brought sandboxed apps to the iphone. And no-one knew what an app was back then, most seemed surprised that a person even made the games they played on their phones.

UK-AL 11y ago

Laziness?

guardian5x 11y ago

App is shorter than Application or Program. Language evolves as well.

jamesdwilson 11y ago

App implies microsoft gets a monopoly on control and distribution (as well as revocation), ie app store, ie walled garden. It also implies you should expect it to not be open source, and you should expect to pay at least $0.99 for it.

wlesieutre 11y ago
You can distribute universal Windows apps outside the Windows Store.
- ant6n 11y ago
  You mean programs?
  - wlesieutre 11y ago
    No, I mean apps. I'm just as lazy as anybody else, and I don't see a need to use an older word with an extra syllable and a bunch of baggage just to show off that I was using computers before the iPhone came out. If they were distributed as .programx files instead of .appx files, maybe you'd have a point.
    - ant6n 11y ago
      So when the IPhone came out, the word 'program' was changed to 'app'?
      - grokys 11y ago
        Even before the iPhone came out, people used the abbreviation "app" for "application". Source: I was around then ;)
        ant6n 11y ago
        But did they use "app" instead of "program"?
        wlesieutre 11y ago
        True, especially with OS X having .app file extensions. I still called them "Applications" more often than not though.
        ant6n 11y ago
        Oh, so it's like a Mac thing. So why do we have to call Windows programs 'App'?
        icebraining 11y ago
        It's not a Mac-only thing, it has been used on Linux and Windows for decades. http://www.drdobbs.com/windows/windows-apps-and-exception-handlers/184409706 http://www.drdobbs.com/windows/windows-apps-and-exception-ha...
      - wlesieutre 11y ago
        In popular usage, pretty much. I'd object more if it were something like "nuculer" where we're adding in wrong letters to pronounce it wrong, but I really don't care if something is an "app" or a "program". As far as connotations go, "app" tends to mean a simple single-purpose piece of software, and "program" is an all encompassing legacy blob that takes a dump in 40 different folders because it can't keep its shit together. Not always true, but still what I think of. I tend to use the words that way when the software in question falls into one category or the other. Will I call Forza an app because it's on the store? Eh, maybe. I'll probably call it a game (does anybody call those "programs"?). Would I call AutoCAD an app if they started distributing it as a UWP package? Less certain. Maybe not. Skype? Absolutely.
- protomyth 11y ago
  If your customers check a setting called “side-loading” in "Updates & Security" under "For developers" with a fairly scary warning, then yes you can sell outside the Windows Store.
  - madspindel 11y ago
    Nope. Now you can double-click the appx file. Demonstrated on Build keynote.
    - protomyth 11y ago
      Well, that's a whole lot nicer than their website is currently telling me. I did look for updated instructions as this has been a bit of issue with contractor supplied software.
  - anonymfus 11y ago
    These settings are about digital signatures of applications.
- mrec 11y ago
  Yes, they've been trailing that for a while. Do you know if there's any kind of legally-binding commitment to keep this option open, or might this be a temporary thing while they try to get some traction for the platform?
  - wlesieutre 11y ago
    I'm sure it's not legally binding, but neither is Apple's letting people run unsigned applications or even signed applications from outside the app store. MS seems pretty serious about trying to get developers on board with their platform. I can't imagine them reversing course on this, especially with "Tim Sweeney is wrong about everything, UWP is an open platform" being a recurring subtext of the keynote.

diskcat 11y ago

program is kinda hard to say because of the 2 r's.

mikeash 11y ago

You're decades late on this. "App" has been used as a shorthand way to refer to programs for a loooong time. Random example, Apple had an object oriented framework called MacApp in 1985.

digi_owl 11y ago
But outside of the Apple world program was most commonly used. It took the rise of the iPhone for app to displace program.
hydromet 11y ago
This makes sense. The tight knit NeXT community used the "app" meme regularly staring at least in 1990 if not sooner.
khedoros 11y ago
To me, "app" was just short for "application", and it usually implied something more than a program. A program was more of an individual binary and its data files. An application could be a suite of programs; basically, it was a superset of "program" that could include multiple binaries acting toward a common purpose. An "App" (mobile-style) is a new word. It implies (again, to me) a sandboxed program with a simplified, single-window, full-screen UI. The same 3 letters (app) have been used my entire life to refer to computer programs, but the connotation has shifted a lot.
- mikeash 11y ago
  It seems pretty constant to me. It has always meant a user-facing program that's largely self-contained. It's not synonymous with "program," but since this story is about converting stuff for the Windows Store, I think it's being used correctly here.

nothrabannosir 11y ago

Whitelisting permissions instead of blacklisting them, hopefully. As far as I know, that is the main difference: apps are sandboxed programs which you can easily install and deinstall without affecting the rest of the system. Or...?

notatoad 11y ago

In my mind an app is a sandboxed, focused thing that lives in a single window and behind a single launcher icon. application or program or any other older term from before iOS introduced "apps" could be a collection of a half-dozen different entries in your start menu, or an application like GIMP that scatters a bunch of different windows around your screen. "App" implies a level of simplicity.

bitwize 11y ago
App has been short for "application" since at least the DOS days, when Lotus 1-2-3 was frequently called the PC's "killer app".
- notatoad 11y ago
  yes, but the meaning of words can change over time.

bradford 11y ago

(disclaimer, I'm a Microsoft employee and this is only my opinion). There's an important distinction which often don't see discussed when this topic comes up: It can be very dangerous to install a program on your machine, but an 'app' comes with some assurance. People often think of the app store as a method for MS to grab your money, but in my opinion it fixes many of the installation/deployment problems that have existed on windows since... 95? 'Programs' typically require an MSI for installation. You'd better know, and trust, the MSI before you give it the required administrative privileges it needs to run, because a rogue MSI can absolutely own your machine. On the other hand, 'Apps' declare what they are going to do to your machine via the manifest, so you kind of know what you are getting into before your install. The apps are sandboxed, so they have limited ability to tamper with your machine, and they can be uninstalled in a more uniform fashion. In short, I feel much better telling my Grandma that she can install an 'App', but i'm much less confident telling her that it's ok to install a program via Installer.MSI.

bradleyjg 11y ago
This sounds nice and reasonable, but I think it's a post hoc explanation that doesn't quite work. Look at the language in the linked article. It talks about converting my "Win32 apps" into "Universal Windows Platform apps". But those legacy programs aren't "apps" within the meaning you've laid out.
- bradford 11y ago
  I'll confess ignorance over what exactly the converter does, or how it does it. I don't know anything more than what was announced today. The article says that it converts win32/.net apps into appx packages, and I'd assume that this does encompass 'the meaning that I've laid out'.
  - tstrimple 11y ago
    It does. It sandboxes the filesystem and registry as well.
- Eyas 11y ago

ioab 11y ago

A couple of days ago, I was thinking how rare we use program word now. web apps, mobile apps, standalone apps...

doener 11y ago

In Germany by the way "app" almost always means "mobile app", while desktop apps are still being called "Programme" aka programs in English.

stuaxo 11y ago

Fairly sure it is just short for application. They used to be called apps when we made them for J2ME phones. Symbian apps were not sandboxed, but J2ME ones were, and this was the majority. Later on apple brought sandboxed apps to the iphone. And no-one knew what an app was back then, most seemed surprised that a person even made the games they played on their phones.