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Ember continues to be an antidote to the insane package/build madness in the JS ecosystem. It's opinionated for sure but it's also very easy to get started with

Ember continues to be an antidote to the insane package/build madness in the JS ecosystem. It's opinionated for sure but it's also very easy to get started with.

elliotec 11y ago
I love Ember. It seems to be one of the only sources of sanity and reason in this community.
- girvo 11y ago
  > only sources of sanity and reason in this community Oh come on now, lets not be hyperbolic. I'm a massive fan of Ember, but I'm a bigger fan of Redux with React; the reason that Ember can afford to be opinionated is because the team is extremely smart and takes the best winning ideas from the outside "insane" community.
  - elliotec 11y ago
    I'm not being hyperbolic, and I think the React ecosystem deserves a large part of the blame for this mess. I am totally aware that is an unpopular opinion. The fact that Ember can distill the insanity of the community into an opinionated and usable framework (and also take wonderful ideas from things like Rails) is exactly what I mean by a source of reason.
hardwaresofton 11y ago
While I love Ember, one of it's biggest downfalls is definitely has a longer ramp up period, and more complexity than other frameworks. Ember's documentation is very good now, but still, there is a lot you have to read (and eventually experience to truly understand) about how ember works under the covers. One of ember's greatest benefits is that it adapts to change and doesn't miss out on features for very long at all (you can look at fastboot as a reaction to isomorphic react apps, or something that the ember team would have just pursued anyway). However, that benefit can also be a pitfall for newcomers to ember as it's hard to find consistent discussion, help, and resources for a framework that changes so fast. BTW, while Ember CLI makes things much easier, it does not improve the complexity situation, it just becomes one more thing you have to learn when learning Ember (even as a newbie). What if a newbie isn't familiar with node? what if they're not sure why you're precompiling? what if they're not familiar with task runners like grunt and gulp? Contrasted with frameworks like Angular 1, Backbone+Marionette, Ember definitely has the most rampup and complexity, not the least.
- sotojuan 11y ago
  I think the CLI helps tremendously, even if you have to learn it (and for simple stuff you don't aside from `ember new` and `ember start`, maybe a few file generators). The biggest problem with beginners is setting up a JS environment—I've seen people waste hours doing it. Ember's CLI tool takes care of all of that.
  - hardwaresofton 11y ago
    I agree it helps -- but there is a hidden cost of people not understanding all the towers of abstraction that have been built up for them, despite sitting on top of it. Ember CLI does file generation and a whole lot more. I'm not saying it shouldn't -- but that shouldn't be the easiest most approachable way to start with Ember. Why should someone have to learn all the following things: - transpiling - nodejs - npm & packaging - bower - broccoli/task runners - livereload ... just to START with a web framework? Maybe don't market Ember to beginners? Again, I like Ember, I think it's the most viable large framework out there right now -- but this is certainly an issue
    - qaq 11y ago
      For the 3 major frameworks it's about the same list (minus bower but Ember is phasing it out too.
      - hardwaresofton 11y ago
        How so? angular1 does not require you to download anything node-related, for example? Angular doesn't recommend any tooling, pretty much (just include the framework code and you're off to the races, write some html write some js)...
        qaq 11y ago
        Angular 2 does :) about the same list as was outlined for Ember

Ember continues to be an antidote to the insane package/build madness in the JS ecosystem. It's opinionated for sure but it's also very easy to get started with.

elliotec 11y ago

I love Ember. It seems to be one of the only sources of sanity and reason in this community.

girvo 11y ago
> only sources of sanity and reason in this community Oh come on now, lets not be hyperbolic. I'm a massive fan of Ember, but I'm a bigger fan of Redux with React; the reason that Ember can afford to be opinionated is because the team is extremely smart and takes the best winning ideas from the outside "insane" community.
- elliotec 11y ago
  I'm not being hyperbolic, and I think the React ecosystem deserves a large part of the blame for this mess. I am totally aware that is an unpopular opinion. The fact that Ember can distill the insanity of the community into an opinionated and usable framework (and also take wonderful ideas from things like Rails) is exactly what I mean by a source of reason.

hardwaresofton 11y ago

While I love Ember, one of it's biggest downfalls is definitely has a longer ramp up period, and more complexity than other frameworks. Ember's documentation is very good now, but still, there is a lot you have to read (and eventually experience to truly understand) about how ember works under the covers. One of ember's greatest benefits is that it adapts to change and doesn't miss out on features for very long at all (you can look at fastboot as a reaction to isomorphic react apps, or something that the ember team would have just pursued anyway). However, that benefit can also be a pitfall for newcomers to ember as it's hard to find consistent discussion, help, and resources for a framework that changes so fast. BTW, while Ember CLI makes things much easier, it does not improve the complexity situation, it just becomes one more thing you have to learn when learning Ember (even as a newbie). What if a newbie isn't familiar with node? what if they're not sure why you're precompiling? what if they're not familiar with task runners like grunt and gulp? Contrasted with frameworks like Angular 1, Backbone+Marionette, Ember definitely has the most rampup and complexity, not the least.

sotojuan 11y ago
I think the CLI helps tremendously, even if you have to learn it (and for simple stuff you don't aside from `ember new` and `ember start`, maybe a few file generators). The biggest problem with beginners is setting up a JS environment—I've seen people waste hours doing it. Ember's CLI tool takes care of all of that.
- hardwaresofton 11y ago
  I agree it helps -- but there is a hidden cost of people not understanding all the towers of abstraction that have been built up for them, despite sitting on top of it. Ember CLI does file generation and a whole lot more. I'm not saying it shouldn't -- but that shouldn't be the easiest most approachable way to start with Ember. Why should someone have to learn all the following things: - transpiling - nodejs - npm & packaging - bower - broccoli/task runners - livereload ... just to START with a web framework? Maybe don't market Ember to beginners? Again, I like Ember, I think it's the most viable large framework out there right now -- but this is certainly an issue
  - qaq 11y ago
    For the 3 major frameworks it's about the same list (minus bower but Ember is phasing it out too.
    - hardwaresofton 11y ago
      How so? angular1 does not require you to download anything node-related, for example? Angular doesn't recommend any tooling, pretty much (just include the framework code and you're off to the races, write some html write some js)...
      - qaq 11y ago
        Angular 2 does :) about the same list as was outlined for Ember