8 ms·

This is one of those very fine lines where on one side you have completely understandable outrage at an unjust and broken system--and on the other you have comp

This is one of those very fine lines where on one side you have completely understandable outrage at an unjust and broken system--and on the other you have completely understandable outrage at an unjust and broken system, and killing people who are employed by the system but don't any have direct control over it. I think the former is entirely justified, but the latter is clearly not.

maurycy 17y ago
The problem is that no one has any direct control over the system. It is like any other big company. The call centre people are never responsible for the mess the company made to you. However, if you do not want to devote significant resources, you are pretty much screwed up and yell at the call centre people. The difference is that, in the most cases, you can just forget about the corporation and live your life. There is no opt-out from the IRS, though.
- thinkcomp 17y ago
  Actually, if anyone has direct control, it's the Secretary of the Treasury. And as we learned from the confirmation hearings, he doesn't know how to pay his taxes any better than the rest of us.
- abalashov 17y ago
  This was Fromm's particular insight about modern industrial civilisation; in past social and productive orders, it was easier to see your oppressor, often in singularity. But now, not only is his nature infinitely more obscured, but, in fact, he is a legitimately anonymous, organic whole. Nobody in particular to hold responsible.
thaumaturgy 17y ago
Hmm. If the latter is unjustified, what does that say about situations in war where civilians are killed, injured, or have their property destroyed? I'm not quite equating what happened in Texas with war between sovereign states, but I do think there are some parallels in the mind of the terrorist, as well as in history and human behavior in general. If you find yourself in a violent conflict with something intangible, like a government or a bureaucracy, how do you not see the people who are working for that government or bureaucracy as being part of the problem? EDIT: I want to be very clear here. What happened to the employees at the IRS building is tragic, and they didn't have any influence on the IRS' decision-making process, or even on Stack's particular situation. Rather, what I'm trying to say is that as long as there is no way to peacefully resolve disputes in situations like this, to the satisfaction of both parties, then what happened is to be expected and will continue to happen. (Remember Tim McVeigh? He had some of the same complaints...) So, what happened must prompt a quick response in the form of reforms of the IRS, specifically in dispute management and resolution, and I think that every article that handwaves Stack's terrorism as being the actions of "a wacko", "a nut", or "unjustified", weakens the case for those reforms.
- codexon 17y ago
  I'm not quite equating what happened in Texas with war between sovereign states It's only a matter of scale. Nations have gone to war for less righteous reasons; such as religion or taking stuff from weaker nations.
- wartaxresistor 17y ago
  >> didn't have any influence Yeah they did. They could choose not to do this job, and be poor, or unemployed, or less secure, or have to deal with the stress of getting another job. No tax enforcers, no IRS. No soldiers, no army. Soldiers could choose not to get that nice signing bonus, and either not get a college education or owe a lot more debt on their student loans without the military subsidy. There is definitely an element of choice involved when you sign up to be the government's mailed fist.
philwelch 17y ago
I don't know if it's worth flying an airplane into someone's office for, but you can't entirely disclaim responsibility if you work for the IRS just because you don't have direct control over it. You're still part of an unjust system even if you're only following orders, after all.
tomjen2 17y ago
You work for the IRS, you agree with the IRS or go find another job. None of this "but I have no influence" bullshit.
yummyfajitas 17y ago
...and killing people who are employed by the system but don't any have direct control over it. I'm employed by a system which I believe is unjust. It extracts rents from skilled young people as the price of admission into the professional world, and extracts rents from scientists by all sorts of shady methods. I don't have any direct control over it. But by working for this system, I am partly responsible for it. I can't stop the system, but I don't have to support it (and once my contract expires, I won't). Any IRS employee who witness the injustice and continues to work for the IRS is partly responsible for it. They could leave, but choose not to. "I just work here" is not an excuse.

maurycy 17y ago

The problem is that no one has any direct control over the system. It is like any other big company. The call centre people are never responsible for the mess the company made to you. However, if you do not want to devote significant resources, you are pretty much screwed up and yell at the call centre people. The difference is that, in the most cases, you can just forget about the corporation and live your life. There is no opt-out from the IRS, though.

thinkcomp 17y ago
Actually, if anyone has direct control, it's the Secretary of the Treasury. And as we learned from the confirmation hearings, he doesn't know how to pay his taxes any better than the rest of us.
abalashov 17y ago
This was Fromm's particular insight about modern industrial civilisation; in past social and productive orders, it was easier to see your oppressor, often in singularity. But now, not only is his nature infinitely more obscured, but, in fact, he is a legitimately anonymous, organic whole. Nobody in particular to hold responsible.

thaumaturgy 17y ago

Hmm. If the latter is unjustified, what does that say about situations in war where civilians are killed, injured, or have their property destroyed? I'm not quite equating what happened in Texas with war between sovereign states, but I do think there are some parallels in the mind of the terrorist, as well as in history and human behavior in general. If you find yourself in a violent conflict with something intangible, like a government or a bureaucracy, how do you not see the people who are working for that government or bureaucracy as being part of the problem? EDIT: I want to be very clear here. What happened to the employees at the IRS building is tragic, and they didn't have any influence on the IRS' decision-making process, or even on Stack's particular situation. Rather, what I'm trying to say is that as long as there is no way to peacefully resolve disputes in situations like this, to the satisfaction of both parties, then what happened is to be expected and will continue to happen. (Remember Tim McVeigh? He had some of the same complaints...) So, what happened must prompt a quick response in the form of reforms of the IRS, specifically in dispute management and resolution, and I think that every article that handwaves Stack's terrorism as being the actions of "a wacko", "a nut", or "unjustified", weakens the case for those reforms.

codexon 17y ago
I'm not quite equating what happened in Texas with war between sovereign states It's only a matter of scale. Nations have gone to war for less righteous reasons; such as religion or taking stuff from weaker nations.
wartaxresistor 17y ago
>> didn't have any influence Yeah they did. They could choose not to do this job, and be poor, or unemployed, or less secure, or have to deal with the stress of getting another job. No tax enforcers, no IRS. No soldiers, no army. Soldiers could choose not to get that nice signing bonus, and either not get a college education or owe a lot more debt on their student loans without the military subsidy. There is definitely an element of choice involved when you sign up to be the government's mailed fist.

philwelch 17y ago

I don't know if it's worth flying an airplane into someone's office for, but you can't entirely disclaim responsibility if you work for the IRS just because you don't have direct control over it. You're still part of an unjust system even if you're only following orders, after all.

tomjen2 17y ago

You work for the IRS, you agree with the IRS or go find another job. None of this "but I have no influence" bullshit.

yummyfajitas 17y ago

...and killing people who are employed by the system but don't any have direct control over it. I'm employed by a system which I believe is unjust. It extracts rents from skilled young people as the price of admission into the professional world, and extracts rents from scientists by all sorts of shady methods. I don't have any direct control over it. But by working for this system, I am partly responsible for it. I can't stop the system, but I don't have to support it (and once my contract expires, I won't). Any IRS employee who witness the injustice and continues to work for the IRS is partly responsible for it. They could leave, but choose not to. "I just work here" is not an excuse.