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So, NPM is charging forward like they did nothing wrong? Where is the reflection on the kik Dispute Resolution process? How does one non-NPM user (Bob Stratton

So, NPM is charging forward like they did nothing wrong? Where is the reflection on the kik Dispute Resolution process? How does one non-NPM user (Bob Stratton and kik Interactive) get to harass an actual NPM user (with millions of monthly downloads), in violation NPM policy, and still be taken seriously, let alone succeed in taking package names with literally (according to transcripts) no discussion from NPM? Is it OK to start referring to people as pussies in emails to them if they don't give up their names? Edit: please downmodders, leave a note about why you are downmodding this. Edit2: Wow, hit a nerve here.

petetnt 11y ago
> Where is the reflection on the kik Dispute Resolution process? In their blog? http://blog.npmjs.org/post/141577284765/kik-left-pad-and-npm http://blog.npmjs.org/post/141577284765/kik-left-pad-and-npm
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  That's not much of a reflection: >We stand by our package name dispute resolution policy, and the decision to which it led us. There is no discussion of the transcripts, or the violations of the NPM Code of Conduct[0] that occurred during the takeover. A very popular community member was harassed and NPM took part in it. I haven't seen this issue addressed by any NPM representative. >Harassing other users of the Service is never tolerated, whether via public or private media. >Harassment includes, but is not limited to: ... inappropriate use of nudity, sexual images, and/or sexually explicit language in public spaces; threats of physical or non-physical harm; [0] https://www.npmjs.com/policies/conduct https://www.npmjs.com/policies/conduct NPM not only tolerated harassment, but sided with the harasser.
  - alainv 11y ago
    Harassed? Really? The undisputed transcript[0] doesn't really support that view, in my opinion. [0] https://medium.com/@mproberts/a-discussion-about-the-breaking-of-the-internet-3d4d2a83aa4d https://medium.com/@mproberts/a-discussion-about-the-breakin...
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      NPM supplied the definition of harassment. The problem is Bob's second email: >We don’t mean to be a dick about it, but it’s a registered Trademark in most countries around the world and if you actually release an open source project called kik, our trademark lawyers are going to be banging on your door and taking down your accounts and stuff like that — and we’d have no choice but to do all that because you have to enforce trademarks or you lose them. Bob was using inappropriate vulgarities and further threatened non-physical harm against Azer's "accounts" (and other "stuff like that"), in addition to threatening to send people to Azer's physical location ("stalking", "following", and, "deliberate intimidation" are also considered harassment under the Code of Conduct).
      - laughinghan 11y ago
        I may be stepping into hot water here, but I agree with grandparent and NPM that it wasn't harassment. Consider the following situation, which I hope we can all agree wouldn't be bad behavior (on the threatener's part), but would be "harassment" by the same argument you're using here: Alice writes proprietary code for a living. Monsanto somehow (she has difficulty proving it was illegal) obtains her (non-open-source) code and publishes it as open source on NPM under their own name. Alice asks Monsanto to take it down, threatening to sue them. She also asks NPM to take it down, who complies. Should NPM have sided with Monsanto because Alice sent them an email that contained a threat? No, she had a legal right to make that threat! In the email exchange between Bob and Azer, the vulgarity was referring to Bob himself, not Azer, and the threats were ones Bob had a legal right to make—a legal obligation, even, in some sense ("you have to enforce trademarks or you lose them" is universal in intellectual property jurisdictions, at least according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Maintaining_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Maintaining_rights ). > Edit2: Wow, hit a nerve here. > Edit to Steve (rate limited): [...] Hmmm, whose nerve was hit? I hate corporations as much as the next indie open source developer, but they're not the bad guy in every corporation vs open source developer story. Sometimes the open source developer legitimately infringed on a right that people in the corporation worked hard to earn.
        11y ago
steveklabnik 11y ago
> So, NPM is charging forward like they did nothing wrong? From the article: It’s our mission to help the community succeed, and by failing to protect the community, we didn’t uphold that mission. We’re sorry.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  I read this as referring to the `left-pad` package, not the `kik` package and its Dispute Resolution process, which violated the NPM Code of Conduct. NPM was absolutely wrong on the `kik` package, but their prior blog/tumblr post said they did nothing wrong there. Edit to Steve (rate limited): There were many things wrong with how the `kik` package was handled, but that email thread should have never made it through the process. Per NPM policy, it should have been rejected as soon as the word 'dick' was read (the threats wouldn't even need to be considered then [which, they apparently weren't anyway]).
  - steveklabnik 11y ago
    Ah, I see. I also disagree with what happened around kik, but not for the same reasons as you.
dap 11y ago
> Where is the reflection on the kik Dispute Resolution process? They already had a substantial blog post reflecting on that part of the incident, including what they feel worked and didn't: http://blog.npmjs.org/post/141577284765/kik-left-pad-and-npm http://blog.npmjs.org/post/141577284765/kik-left-pad-and-npm
- the_ancient 11y ago
  What they feel did not work was that the developer simply did not roll over and give in when a larger company made a demand... there was 168 Comments before they removed commenting from the Blog.... Of those I counted like 5 that where in support of NPM's action and response.
  - JorgeGT 11y ago
    The removed comments are still is Disqus: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/npmjs/the_npm_blog_kik_left_pad_and_npm/ https://disqus.com/home/discussion/npmjs/the_npm_blog_kik_le...

petetnt 11y ago

> Where is the reflection on the kik Dispute Resolution process? In their blog? http://blog.npmjs.org/post/141577284765/kik-left-pad-and-npm http://blog.npmjs.org/post/141577284765/kik-left-pad-and-npm

jsprogrammer 11y ago
That's not much of a reflection: >We stand by our package name dispute resolution policy, and the decision to which it led us. There is no discussion of the transcripts, or the violations of the NPM Code of Conduct[0] that occurred during the takeover. A very popular community member was harassed and NPM took part in it. I haven't seen this issue addressed by any NPM representative. >Harassing other users of the Service is never tolerated, whether via public or private media. >Harassment includes, but is not limited to: ... inappropriate use of nudity, sexual images, and/or sexually explicit language in public spaces; threats of physical or non-physical harm; [0] https://www.npmjs.com/policies/conduct https://www.npmjs.com/policies/conduct NPM not only tolerated harassment, but sided with the harasser.
- alainv 11y ago
  Harassed? Really? The undisputed transcript[0] doesn't really support that view, in my opinion. [0] https://medium.com/@mproberts/a-discussion-about-the-breaking-of-the-internet-3d4d2a83aa4d https://medium.com/@mproberts/a-discussion-about-the-breakin...
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    NPM supplied the definition of harassment. The problem is Bob's second email: >We don’t mean to be a dick about it, but it’s a registered Trademark in most countries around the world and if you actually release an open source project called kik, our trademark lawyers are going to be banging on your door and taking down your accounts and stuff like that — and we’d have no choice but to do all that because you have to enforce trademarks or you lose them. Bob was using inappropriate vulgarities and further threatened non-physical harm against Azer's "accounts" (and other "stuff like that"), in addition to threatening to send people to Azer's physical location ("stalking", "following", and, "deliberate intimidation" are also considered harassment under the Code of Conduct).
    - laughinghan 11y ago
      I may be stepping into hot water here, but I agree with grandparent and NPM that it wasn't harassment. Consider the following situation, which I hope we can all agree wouldn't be bad behavior (on the threatener's part), but would be "harassment" by the same argument you're using here: Alice writes proprietary code for a living. Monsanto somehow (she has difficulty proving it was illegal) obtains her (non-open-source) code and publishes it as open source on NPM under their own name. Alice asks Monsanto to take it down, threatening to sue them. She also asks NPM to take it down, who complies. Should NPM have sided with Monsanto because Alice sent them an email that contained a threat? No, she had a legal right to make that threat! In the email exchange between Bob and Azer, the vulgarity was referring to Bob himself, not Azer, and the threats were ones Bob had a legal right to make—a legal obligation, even, in some sense ("you have to enforce trademarks or you lose them" is universal in intellectual property jurisdictions, at least according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Maintaining_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Maintaining_rights ). > Edit2: Wow, hit a nerve here. > Edit to Steve (rate limited): [...] Hmmm, whose nerve was hit? I hate corporations as much as the next indie open source developer, but they're not the bad guy in every corporation vs open source developer story. Sometimes the open source developer legitimately infringed on a right that people in the corporation worked hard to earn.
      - 11y ago

steveklabnik 11y ago

> So, NPM is charging forward like they did nothing wrong? From the article: It’s our mission to help the community succeed, and by failing to protect the community, we didn’t uphold that mission. We’re sorry.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
I read this as referring to the `left-pad` package, not the `kik` package and its Dispute Resolution process, which violated the NPM Code of Conduct. NPM was absolutely wrong on the `kik` package, but their prior blog/tumblr post said they did nothing wrong there. Edit to Steve (rate limited): There were many things wrong with how the `kik` package was handled, but that email thread should have never made it through the process. Per NPM policy, it should have been rejected as soon as the word 'dick' was read (the threats wouldn't even need to be considered then [which, they apparently weren't anyway]).
- steveklabnik 11y ago
  Ah, I see. I also disagree with what happened around kik, but not for the same reasons as you.

dap 11y ago

> Where is the reflection on the kik Dispute Resolution process? They already had a substantial blog post reflecting on that part of the incident, including what they feel worked and didn't: http://blog.npmjs.org/post/141577284765/kik-left-pad-and-npm http://blog.npmjs.org/post/141577284765/kik-left-pad-and-npm

the_ancient 11y ago
What they feel did not work was that the developer simply did not roll over and give in when a larger company made a demand... there was 168 Comments before they removed commenting from the Blog.... Of those I counted like 5 that where in support of NPM's action and response.
- JorgeGT 11y ago
  The removed comments are still is Disqus: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/npmjs/the_npm_blog_kik_left_pad_and_npm/ https://disqus.com/home/discussion/npmjs/the_npm_blog_kik_le...