5 ms·

Slaughter at the bridge: Uncovering a colossal Bronze Age battle

93 points by curtis 11y ago

mhurron 11y ago
> About 3200 years ago, two armies clashed at a river crossing near the Baltic Sea. The confrontation can’t be found in any history books—the written word didn’t become common in these parts for another 2000 years I think they got their math or information wrong, written word not being common for another 2000 years after 3200 years ago would mean that writing didn't become common in Germany until ~800 CE. Writing not being common in Germany until about 2000 years ago or 1200 years later (than 3200) would be more correct.
- wavefunction 11y ago
  "Common" though?
- jonsen 11y ago
  Fro Wikisources: RUNES, RUNIC LANGUAGE AND INSCRIPTIONS. The art of writing with an alphabet appears to have been introduced into Germanic Europe in the Iron Age. ... The Iron Age is supposed to have existed from circa 200 to circa 650, and it is to the close of this epoch that the beginning of the writing on Scandinavian memorials is attributed.
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    What we think of as writing is hard without the right technology. You need parchment/vellum/papyrus, and something to make ink, and something to make pens with. None of this is trivial. And it's not obvious until someone invents it, or is told how to do it by someone else. So you can have an alphabet - but if it's only ever engraved into rocks, that guarantees that whatever gets written is really, really important to someone, and there won't be a lot of diarising, philosophising, or gossip, or even recording of battles. The fact that we can buy pens, paper, and digital keyboards so easily we take them for granted is actually kind of amazing.
    - eru 11y ago
      > [...] but if it's only ever engraved into rocks, [...] You can engrave into wood much easier. Won't last for as long as rocks, though. That's why we see less of it.
- douche 11y ago
  It doesn't seem particularly likely to be incorrect. That area of north-east Germany was kind of a backwater in late antiquity, with the Romans stopped well short of penetrating that far, and many of the tribes that had been living there migrating further west, and replaced with the Wends, a branch of pagan Slavs. 800 CE would be about the time that that area of Germany became part of Charlemagne's empire, and Christian missionaries started making inroads around the Baltic.
  - pklausler 11y ago
    Charlemagne himself could read, but not write.
    - davidw 11y ago
      There's a joke about chmod u+w Charlemagne there, but I can't think of one off the top of my head.
      - jqm 11y ago
        chmod 500 Because it's certain he could execute as well.... (In fact, let's make it 510. The group can't read or write but they don't have problem executing either.)
- jdmichal 11y ago
  Eldar Futhark [0] would be the earliest Germanic tribe writing, and spanned from 2nd to 8th centuries. However, I don't believe that any literature was found, just inscriptions. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark
- noselasd 11y ago
  800CE seems about right for Germany. Prior to that there's very little text being found besides small/simple inscriptions.
mmanfrin 11y ago
This is within a century of the fall of the Hittites, Egyptians, Babylonians, Mycenaeans, Canaanites, Troy, Miletus, and a few others. What I would give for a time machine to know precisely what caused all this turmoil.
- douche 11y ago
  One quote from the article I found interesting was this: > DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia. "This is not a bunch of local idiots,” says University of Mainz geneticist Joachim Burger. “It’s a highly diverse population.” I'm curious if this analysis takes into account the historical migration patterns of the Germanic tribes that were potentially living in the area at that era. For instance, the Vandals, Goths and Lombards are all believed to have been settled in north-central Europe prior to their late-Roman migrations into Italy, Spain and elsewhere. On the other hand, this might be before those tribes migrated south out of Scandinavia, if, as is believed, they originated in Scandinavia, in which case the inhabitants of this area may have been the proto-Celtic Urnfield culture[1]. And there is always the question of how much displacement versus assimilation occurred in these movements. It all gets pretty hazy, and most of these divisions are based on styles of artifacts and burial practices. As DNA sequencing improves, I'm very interested in seeing how that fills in the blanks around these large-scale migration events. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture
- InclinedPlane 11y ago
  The entire bronze age is fascinating, with little historical data surviving. This was an era where humans stepped into a new age of civilization. So much of what we think of as modern ways of life had their start in the bronze age. You have trade networks that span continents, running from the British Isles all the way across to the Horn of Africa, and possibly beyond. You have merchants who travel around those networks, making trips of hundreds or event thousands of kilometers and connecting vastly different cultures and civilizations. You have people from the Levant and the Aegean spreading out and settling in Morocco, Libya, Spain, Italy, etc. You have a whole host of new technologies being invented, adding to the already impressive list of innovations from the stone age. Advances in tools, boats, clothing, housing and construction, writing, mathematics, the wheel, agriculture, pottery, and so on. Then you have cultures who exist not just in small bands but have grouped together into city states and even empires. You have kings, queens, emperors, etc. Add on to that the enrichment of philosophies, mythologies, stories, etc. that was happening culturally. So much of our modern culture has roots in that era, with fables like Jason and the Argonauts, epics like the Iliad and the Odyssey, mythological elements like the great flood, supernatural cosmology (deities and their interactions with mankind), and on and on. You can trace the origins of so much of the nature and character of 21st century human civilization back to that era. And yet, so little of what happened was recorded, so little was preserved even with artifacts and ruins. So much happened and we know so little about it.
323454 11y ago
Humans were doing really "modern" stuff so much earlier than I realised!

93 points by curtis 11y ago

> About 3200 years ago, two armies clashed at a river crossing near the Baltic Sea. The confrontation can’t be found in any history books—the written word didn’t become common in these parts for another 2000 years I think they got their math or information wrong, written word not being common for another 2000 years after 3200 years ago would mean that writing didn't become common in Germany until ~800 CE. Writing not being common in Germany until about 2000 years ago or 1200 years later (than 3200) would be more correct.

wavefunction 11y ago
"Common" though?
jonsen 11y ago
Fro Wikisources: RUNES, RUNIC LANGUAGE AND INSCRIPTIONS. The art of writing with an alphabet appears to have been introduced into Germanic Europe in the Iron Age. ... The Iron Age is supposed to have existed from circa 200 to circa 650, and it is to the close of this epoch that the beginning of the writing on Scandinavian memorials is attributed.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  What we think of as writing is hard without the right technology. You need parchment/vellum/papyrus, and something to make ink, and something to make pens with. None of this is trivial. And it's not obvious until someone invents it, or is told how to do it by someone else. So you can have an alphabet - but if it's only ever engraved into rocks, that guarantees that whatever gets written is really, really important to someone, and there won't be a lot of diarising, philosophising, or gossip, or even recording of battles. The fact that we can buy pens, paper, and digital keyboards so easily we take them for granted is actually kind of amazing.
  - eru 11y ago
    > [...] but if it's only ever engraved into rocks, [...] You can engrave into wood much easier. Won't last for as long as rocks, though. That's why we see less of it.
douche 11y ago
It doesn't seem particularly likely to be incorrect. That area of north-east Germany was kind of a backwater in late antiquity, with the Romans stopped well short of penetrating that far, and many of the tribes that had been living there migrating further west, and replaced with the Wends, a branch of pagan Slavs. 800 CE would be about the time that that area of Germany became part of Charlemagne's empire, and Christian missionaries started making inroads around the Baltic.
- pklausler 11y ago
  Charlemagne himself could read, but not write.
  - davidw 11y ago
    There's a joke about chmod u+w Charlemagne there, but I can't think of one off the top of my head.
    - jqm 11y ago
      chmod 500 Because it's certain he could execute as well.... (In fact, let's make it 510. The group can't read or write but they don't have problem executing either.)
jdmichal 11y ago
Eldar Futhark [0] would be the earliest Germanic tribe writing, and spanned from 2nd to 8th centuries. However, I don't believe that any literature was found, just inscriptions. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark
noselasd 11y ago
800CE seems about right for Germany. Prior to that there's very little text being found besides small/simple inscriptions.

mmanfrin 11y ago

This is within a century of the fall of the Hittites, Egyptians, Babylonians, Mycenaeans, Canaanites, Troy, Miletus, and a few others. What I would give for a time machine to know precisely what caused all this turmoil.

douche 11y ago
One quote from the article I found interesting was this: > DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia. "This is not a bunch of local idiots,” says University of Mainz geneticist Joachim Burger. “It’s a highly diverse population.” I'm curious if this analysis takes into account the historical migration patterns of the Germanic tribes that were potentially living in the area at that era. For instance, the Vandals, Goths and Lombards are all believed to have been settled in north-central Europe prior to their late-Roman migrations into Italy, Spain and elsewhere. On the other hand, this might be before those tribes migrated south out of Scandinavia, if, as is believed, they originated in Scandinavia, in which case the inhabitants of this area may have been the proto-Celtic Urnfield culture[1]. And there is always the question of how much displacement versus assimilation occurred in these movements. It all gets pretty hazy, and most of these divisions are based on styles of artifacts and burial practices. As DNA sequencing improves, I'm very interested in seeing how that fills in the blanks around these large-scale migration events. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture
InclinedPlane 11y ago
The entire bronze age is fascinating, with little historical data surviving. This was an era where humans stepped into a new age of civilization. So much of what we think of as modern ways of life had their start in the bronze age. You have trade networks that span continents, running from the British Isles all the way across to the Horn of Africa, and possibly beyond. You have merchants who travel around those networks, making trips of hundreds or event thousands of kilometers and connecting vastly different cultures and civilizations. You have people from the Levant and the Aegean spreading out and settling in Morocco, Libya, Spain, Italy, etc. You have a whole host of new technologies being invented, adding to the already impressive list of innovations from the stone age. Advances in tools, boats, clothing, housing and construction, writing, mathematics, the wheel, agriculture, pottery, and so on. Then you have cultures who exist not just in small bands but have grouped together into city states and even empires. You have kings, queens, emperors, etc. Add on to that the enrichment of philosophies, mythologies, stories, etc. that was happening culturally. So much of our modern culture has roots in that era, with fables like Jason and the Argonauts, epics like the Iliad and the Odyssey, mythological elements like the great flood, supernatural cosmology (deities and their interactions with mankind), and on and on. You can trace the origins of so much of the nature and character of 21st century human civilization back to that era. And yet, so little of what happened was recorded, so little was preserved even with artifacts and ruins. So much happened and we know so little about it.

323454 11y ago

Humans were doing really "modern" stuff so much earlier than I realised!