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No driver background checks or vehicle inspections, per the TOS [0]: "The Carpool Platform is operated by Clara Rides, Inc., not Lyft, Inc. Clara Rides, Inc. i

No driver background checks or vehicle inspections, per the TOS [0]: "The Carpool Platform is operated by Clara Rides, Inc., not Lyft, Inc. Clara Rides, Inc. is not a Transportation Network Company or a transportation service. Clara Rides and Lyft do not conduct criminal background checks on Carpool Drivers, perform vehicle inspections on vehicles used for Carpool Rides, or provide insurance for Carpool Rides." [0] https://www.lyft.com/carpool/terms https://www.lyft.com/carpool/terms

fillskills 11y ago
Excellent find. This is concerning.
- Kinnard 11y ago
  That is how carpooling works.
  - pc86 11y ago
    For non-commercial purposes, sure.
    - lettergram 11y ago
      I doubt lyft is making much if anything on this. It's likely just a way to get users to start using the app. If they use it daily it's more likely they'll use the standard lyft service too
      - giarc 11y ago
        I wonder if it will recommend a regular Lyft driver if there are no carpool matches.
        bduerst 11y ago
        Why don't we just skip these platform tie-ins and make an auction network for rides and deliveries? That way you can see options like dollar & time estimations across multiple available services whenever you need to go somewhere.
        eli 11y ago
        So... create another new platform?
        bduerst 11y ago
        A network, not a platform. Being platform agnostic makes a difference. Think of it as building an ad auction network for multiple websites and advertisers, rather than just trying to build an ad network for just your own website.
        eli 11y ago
        Wouldn't that require active participation of existing platforms? Seems like it'd be a tough sell.
        bduerst 11y ago
        Not really, considering the service base that makes up those platforms is trying to fragment off. They would be an easy first customer. http://www.fastcompany.com/3057014/fed-up-with-uber-and-lyft-drivers-plan-to-launch-competing-app http://www.fastcompany.com/3057014/fed-up-with-uber-and-lyft...
        samstave 11y ago
        Haha I said exactly this in my private slack to my ops network: Overlay "uber" app where people can submit a bid for flat-fee plus tip % from point A to point B - the idea is that uber drivers could also login to a system to select A-B trips which are bid on Driver says gimme a bid from a radius of me at point a to a radius of point b - when there is a march they connect I said that on Feb/26
      - techrat_hacker 11y ago
        I have a theory that this service is to allure drivers more than consumers. Given that consumers had an option of using Lyft Line or Uber Pool for their daily commute anyways, Lyft Carpool don't add that much value other than perhaps cheaper fare. On the other hand, for the single drivers, this sounds like a good opportunity to make a side income without a huge impact on their lifestyle. Probably another 10 minutes of their lives picking up and dropping off a passenger, and they get paid a few hundred extra bucks a month. I have never thought about being a Lyft/Uber driver, but I am seriously considering registering for Lyft Carpool, and who knows? If I like it, I might become a Lyft driver as a side gig.
- msellout 11y ago
  I'm not concerned. I also walk around my neighborhood at night, even though some folks have told me that's not safe.
  - fillskills 11y ago
    Maybe I am overthinking it. Would love to see Carpooling succeed. Makes commutes easier and environment friendly. Lets hope for the best. Lyft itself is a great service. Never used Line before so cannot speak for that. Even having location tracking for your ride is a notch up.
    - msellout 11y ago
      Lyft Line and Uber Pool have significantly improved my standard of living. For me, it's cheaper and more convenient than owning a car.
  - bduerst 11y ago
    But you have a good health and home insurance plan, right?
    - msellout 11y ago
      Home insurance? No. I live in a large apartment building so I'm not nervous about home invasion. Health insurance? I've been punched by strangers (road rage, sigh) and haven't needed to go to the hospital. The kind of incident my mother imagines for me walking at night isn't the kind of incident where health insurance matters. Life insurance, though. I should probably get that.
philip1209 11y ago
No insurance is a huge red flag to me
- zymhan 11y ago
  Existing, old school carpool programs don't check to see if drivers have insurance, so how is this anything new?
  - jellicle 11y ago
    Existing, old school carpool programs aren't paying their drivers, either. Which means it isn't commercial use. Which means your regular auto insurance covers it. Unlike this.
    - pbreit 11y ago
      The amounts seem purposely low so as to appear like non-commercial activity.
    - thrwwyh 11y ago
      They get around this by limiting the amount of payment to the drivers' costs (i.e. the IRS standard mileage rate of $0.54/mile.) From the TOS: "...we may charge you to reimburse the Carpool Driver for the costs associated with a Carpool Ride provided to you. [...] Reimbursements may include per mile charges at up to the prevailing IRS standard mileage rate, and other expenses like tolls and parking fees." (Emphasis mine)
      - eli 11y ago
        That's an interesting legal theory, but I wouldn't want to be the test case.
      - prawn 11y ago
        If they wanted/needed to pay a higher amount, could Lyft get around this by paying the driver two fees - a first constrained one to skirt the insurance rules and then a "separate" fee for another component such as advertising or data provision or something else plausible but arbitrary?
pbreit 11y ago
Do background checks and extra insurance exist in any carpool systems?
- bduerst 11y ago
  AFAIK Scoop does with checkr.io
  - jsadow 11y ago
    Yup, we use Checkr for our motor vehicle history checks
rconti 11y ago
I believe that would be the expectation, but your clarification is good.
brandonmenc 11y ago
A serious question to everyone complaining about uninsured drivers: do you ask your friends for proof of insurance before getting in their cars as passengers? Do any insurance companies sell passenger insurance to cover accidents when you're the passenger in a car with an underinsured driver?
- DanBC 11y ago
  Insurance companies tend to cover passengers, unless those passengers are there because you're doing weird things. Car-pooling is sufficiently weird for insurers to require you to let them know you're doing it, and they may adjust the premiums. As for whether I ask: yes, I do. Most of the people I get lifts from are insured as part of their job and a bunch of other people have checked for me; or it's public transport and again other people have checked for me.
- gambiting 11y ago
  1) I don't, but I don't have any friends who would be so stupid as to not have insurance. If I do, that means my choices in friends are poor, but I hope not. On the other hand, when I'm getting into a car with a stranger I would really like to know if they have insurance. Just like I don't check the food my friends are serving me to make sure it's fresh,but when I go to a restaurant I expect relevant agencies to make sure that people employed there know how to cook and the place fulfils certain hygiene requirements. 2) I guess if that happened my home insurance would cover it. I'm honestly not sure what would be there to cover if I was a passenger though, even if I had to be hospitalized it wouldn't cost a penny(national health care).
  - brandonmenc 11y ago
    > I don't have any friends who would be so stupid as to not have insurance You might be surprised. Probably less surprising is that they might be insured, but have taken out the minimum required for passengers. > I'm honestly not sure what would be there to cover if I was a passenger though, even if I had to be hospitalized it wouldn't cost a penny Pain and suffering, lost wages, cosmetic surgery.
rdtsc 11y ago
DC has had a carpooling system since 1975 (it is called slugging, drivers pick up "slugs" ;-) so they can drive on I-66 during rush hour). And guess what, nobody checks drivers' backgrounds. Granted state of Virginia already has vehicle inspections (mandatory every year) so maybe the answer is to just have those in each state. But yeah the system works fine. An acquintance working for the DHS hasn't driven herself to work in 15 years because she has been slugging.
- whoopdedo 11y ago
  Sluggers also don't exchange any money. http://slug-lines.com/Slugging/Etiquette.asp http://slug-lines.com/Slugging/Etiquette.asp
  - jerguismi 11y ago
    Sounds a little stupid to me: "No money, gifts, or tokens of appreciation are ever offered or requested. A driver doesn’t expect the riders to help out with gas money. The relationship between the driver and rider is mutually supporting. The driver needs the slugs just as much as the slugs need the driver. If a driver wants help with the gas, he should organize his own car pool. He shouldn’t ask a slug to pitch in for helping him access the HOV!" Car costs money, gasoline costs money. How do the drivers need the riders? Sounds like just plain stupid to me. Money is a good invention and tool, why not to use it. Edit: realized that this allows the drivers to use express lanes, which are common in US. (Don't have those in my country).
    - rdtsc 11y ago
      Instead of just calling the system stupid you could have spent 30 seconds searching for it and seeing how it works. It is right there in the first paragraph on the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging --- [...] frustration over failures of public-transport systems and high fuel prices, led to the creation in the 1970s of "slugging", a form of hitchhiking between strangers that is beneficial to both parties, as drivers and passengers are able to use the HOV lane for a quicker trip. While passengers are able to travel for free, or cheaper than via other modes of travel, and HOV drivers sometimes pay no tolls, "slugs are, above all, motivated by time saved, not money pocketed". --- It would have taken you less time to read that than to write your comment.
massysett 11y ago
What makes this even more concerning is that the driver's insurance company may decide he is carrying passengers for hire and, therefore, that the regular car insurance offers limited or no coverage. My policy says it does not apply: "To any vehicle used to carry persons or property for compensation or a fee, including but not limited to delivery of food or any other products...However, a vehicle used in an ordinary carpool on a ride sharing or cost sharing basis is covered." The question would be whether this is an "ordinary carpool on a cost sharing basis." Lawyers are paid to argue about these things.
- NeutronBoy 11y ago
  > The question would be whether this is an "ordinary carpool on a cost sharing basis." Lawyers are paid to argue about these things. I imagine the intent of this is to cover 'informal' car sharing - e.g. you have a roadtrip with a friend and both pay for petrol, or you drive to work with your neighbour and share costs. Not sure how it would apply to Lyft Carpool - I think initially your insurance company would push back on it.
nxzero 11y ago
Most people are more concerned about getting somewhere than reading contracts, seeing proof of insurance, etc. -- this based on seeing how commuter sharing systems work in the wild. If you're super concerned, next time you flag down a taxi make sure you make sure they're not a "rogue" cabbie; them being uninsured is the the least of your concerns.
- dmix 11y ago
  > Most people are more concerned about getting somewhere than reading contracts Indeed. I'd also add "Getting somewhere cheap..." as a primary incentive for these rides. I've used Craigslist "ride shares" between Montreal<>Toronto ($30) on a number of occasions. I fully understood the risks I was taking compared to paying 3x as much for a safer train ride ($100). The vehicle is advertised as being a Mercedes mini-bus [1] with seating for ~8 people but usually only has 6 passengers and plenty of extra space. The driver was usually an immigrant from China who drove the route everyday, so they know the route well and are always very efficient and reliable. Their lack of english-speaking skills was somewhat of a concern but never caused any issues in practice. I was more concerned about how they managed to survive on what was basically a minimum-wage payout for a full-day of driving. But there is clearly a supply of workers. Plus they made extra money doing deliveries of newspapers between cities. Paying for an over-packed Megabus for a comparable $30 price was out of the question because it's always full, always noisy, full of extra stops in between, smells halfway through if you're near the back, etc, etc. Consumers are capable of making economic cost comparisons. You go on Craigslist searching for bottom-of-the-market rides to save money, there's always a certain expectation of added risk. Same goes with Megabus, almost all of the worst bus drivers I've seen are employed by them, but being outside of the 'sharing' economy seems to protect them from similar scrutiny. [1] http://www.carsberry.com/photogallery/zxn3vt402kfz.jpg http://www.carsberry.com/photogallery/zxn3vt402kfz.jpg
  - iMiiTH 11y ago
    Montreal<>Toronto is around $45 on VIA, no? Or are you talking about a round trip?
crdb 11y ago
Background checks? I had 2 UberX/Grab (the Singaporean Lyft) drivers who openly admitted to being ex-cons - and that in Singapore too. One even laughed that British prisons were like a 5* hotel compared to Asian ones. If these companies perform background checks, what are they checking for?
- putlake 11y ago
  Being an ex-con should not disqualify you from driving a cab. Especially in a country like the US that has obscene incarceration rates, and where who ends up in prison is a factor of race and wealth more than the seriousness of the crime. An ex-con has paid his or her "debt to society" by being in prison. If we don't let them get a job and earn a living, how will they get rehabilitated in society? Edit: typo/car/cab.
  - crdb 11y ago
    Oh, I don't mind, personally, and I agree with you. I also think security on these apps is done by the dissuasive power of knowing that you are live-tracked and almost certain to be caught, rather than any pre filtering (which is the taxi industry's MO); this is a feature. This is what Uber checks for in California: https://newsroom.uber.com/details-on-safety/ https://newsroom.uber.com/details-on-safety/ Basically any lifetime sex offense, or terrorist register; and anything violent, or DUIs in the last 7 years. Both of my drivers would not have passed the last 7 years bit (from what I deduced from our conversation) so the standards are clearly different abroad.
  - tomjen3 11y ago
    I agree if they fiddle with some numbers on a spreadsheet and payed less in taxes or smuggled drugs or something. If they beat somebody up or raped somebody I don't ever want to be near them, much less trust my life to them. I don't give a hoot if they can't get a job or be integrated in society. As far as I am concerned they are permanently broken people - probably like their victims.

fillskills 11y ago

Excellent find. This is concerning.

Kinnard 11y ago
That is how carpooling works.
- pc86 11y ago
  For non-commercial purposes, sure.
  - lettergram 11y ago
    I doubt lyft is making much if anything on this. It's likely just a way to get users to start using the app. If they use it daily it's more likely they'll use the standard lyft service too
    - giarc 11y ago
      I wonder if it will recommend a regular Lyft driver if there are no carpool matches.
      - bduerst 11y ago
        Why don't we just skip these platform tie-ins and make an auction network for rides and deliveries? That way you can see options like dollar & time estimations across multiple available services whenever you need to go somewhere.
        eli 11y ago
        So... create another new platform?
        bduerst 11y ago
        A network, not a platform. Being platform agnostic makes a difference. Think of it as building an ad auction network for multiple websites and advertisers, rather than just trying to build an ad network for just your own website.
        eli 11y ago
        Wouldn't that require active participation of existing platforms? Seems like it'd be a tough sell.
        bduerst 11y ago
        Not really, considering the service base that makes up those platforms is trying to fragment off. They would be an easy first customer. http://www.fastcompany.com/3057014/fed-up-with-uber-and-lyft-drivers-plan-to-launch-competing-app http://www.fastcompany.com/3057014/fed-up-with-uber-and-lyft...
        samstave 11y ago
        Haha I said exactly this in my private slack to my ops network: Overlay "uber" app where people can submit a bid for flat-fee plus tip % from point A to point B - the idea is that uber drivers could also login to a system to select A-B trips which are bid on Driver says gimme a bid from a radius of me at point a to a radius of point b - when there is a march they connect I said that on Feb/26
    - techrat_hacker 11y ago
      I have a theory that this service is to allure drivers more than consumers. Given that consumers had an option of using Lyft Line or Uber Pool for their daily commute anyways, Lyft Carpool don't add that much value other than perhaps cheaper fare. On the other hand, for the single drivers, this sounds like a good opportunity to make a side income without a huge impact on their lifestyle. Probably another 10 minutes of their lives picking up and dropping off a passenger, and they get paid a few hundred extra bucks a month. I have never thought about being a Lyft/Uber driver, but I am seriously considering registering for Lyft Carpool, and who knows? If I like it, I might become a Lyft driver as a side gig.
msellout 11y ago
I'm not concerned. I also walk around my neighborhood at night, even though some folks have told me that's not safe.
- fillskills 11y ago
  Maybe I am overthinking it. Would love to see Carpooling succeed. Makes commutes easier and environment friendly. Lets hope for the best. Lyft itself is a great service. Never used Line before so cannot speak for that. Even having location tracking for your ride is a notch up.
  - msellout 11y ago
    Lyft Line and Uber Pool have significantly improved my standard of living. For me, it's cheaper and more convenient than owning a car.
- bduerst 11y ago
  But you have a good health and home insurance plan, right?
  - msellout 11y ago
    Home insurance? No. I live in a large apartment building so I'm not nervous about home invasion. Health insurance? I've been punched by strangers (road rage, sigh) and haven't needed to go to the hospital. The kind of incident my mother imagines for me walking at night isn't the kind of incident where health insurance matters. Life insurance, though. I should probably get that.

philip1209 11y ago

No insurance is a huge red flag to me

zymhan 11y ago
Existing, old school carpool programs don't check to see if drivers have insurance, so how is this anything new?
- jellicle 11y ago
  Existing, old school carpool programs aren't paying their drivers, either. Which means it isn't commercial use. Which means your regular auto insurance covers it. Unlike this.
  - pbreit 11y ago
    The amounts seem purposely low so as to appear like non-commercial activity.
  - thrwwyh 11y ago
    They get around this by limiting the amount of payment to the drivers' costs (i.e. the IRS standard mileage rate of $0.54/mile.) From the TOS: "...we may charge you to reimburse the Carpool Driver for the costs associated with a Carpool Ride provided to you. [...] Reimbursements may include per mile charges at up to the prevailing IRS standard mileage rate, and other expenses like tolls and parking fees." (Emphasis mine)
    - eli 11y ago
      That's an interesting legal theory, but I wouldn't want to be the test case.
    - prawn 11y ago
      If they wanted/needed to pay a higher amount, could Lyft get around this by paying the driver two fees - a first constrained one to skirt the insurance rules and then a "separate" fee for another component such as advertising or data provision or something else plausible but arbitrary?

pbreit 11y ago

Do background checks and extra insurance exist in any carpool systems?

bduerst 11y ago
AFAIK Scoop does with checkr.io
- jsadow 11y ago
  Yup, we use Checkr for our motor vehicle history checks

rconti 11y ago

I believe that would be the expectation, but your clarification is good.

brandonmenc 11y ago

A serious question to everyone complaining about uninsured drivers: do you ask your friends for proof of insurance before getting in their cars as passengers? Do any insurance companies sell passenger insurance to cover accidents when you're the passenger in a car with an underinsured driver?

DanBC 11y ago
Insurance companies tend to cover passengers, unless those passengers are there because you're doing weird things. Car-pooling is sufficiently weird for insurers to require you to let them know you're doing it, and they may adjust the premiums. As for whether I ask: yes, I do. Most of the people I get lifts from are insured as part of their job and a bunch of other people have checked for me; or it's public transport and again other people have checked for me.
gambiting 11y ago
1) I don't, but I don't have any friends who would be so stupid as to not have insurance. If I do, that means my choices in friends are poor, but I hope not. On the other hand, when I'm getting into a car with a stranger I would really like to know if they have insurance. Just like I don't check the food my friends are serving me to make sure it's fresh,but when I go to a restaurant I expect relevant agencies to make sure that people employed there know how to cook and the place fulfils certain hygiene requirements. 2) I guess if that happened my home insurance would cover it. I'm honestly not sure what would be there to cover if I was a passenger though, even if I had to be hospitalized it wouldn't cost a penny(national health care).
- brandonmenc 11y ago
  > I don't have any friends who would be so stupid as to not have insurance You might be surprised. Probably less surprising is that they might be insured, but have taken out the minimum required for passengers. > I'm honestly not sure what would be there to cover if I was a passenger though, even if I had to be hospitalized it wouldn't cost a penny Pain and suffering, lost wages, cosmetic surgery.

rdtsc 11y ago

DC has had a carpooling system since 1975 (it is called slugging, drivers pick up "slugs" ;-) so they can drive on I-66 during rush hour). And guess what, nobody checks drivers' backgrounds. Granted state of Virginia already has vehicle inspections (mandatory every year) so maybe the answer is to just have those in each state. But yeah the system works fine. An acquintance working for the DHS hasn't driven herself to work in 15 years because she has been slugging.

whoopdedo 11y ago
Sluggers also don't exchange any money. http://slug-lines.com/Slugging/Etiquette.asp http://slug-lines.com/Slugging/Etiquette.asp
- jerguismi 11y ago
  Sounds a little stupid to me: "No money, gifts, or tokens of appreciation are ever offered or requested. A driver doesn’t expect the riders to help out with gas money. The relationship between the driver and rider is mutually supporting. The driver needs the slugs just as much as the slugs need the driver. If a driver wants help with the gas, he should organize his own car pool. He shouldn’t ask a slug to pitch in for helping him access the HOV!" Car costs money, gasoline costs money. How do the drivers need the riders? Sounds like just plain stupid to me. Money is a good invention and tool, why not to use it. Edit: realized that this allows the drivers to use express lanes, which are common in US. (Don't have those in my country).
  - rdtsc 11y ago
    Instead of just calling the system stupid you could have spent 30 seconds searching for it and seeing how it works. It is right there in the first paragraph on the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging --- [...] frustration over failures of public-transport systems and high fuel prices, led to the creation in the 1970s of "slugging", a form of hitchhiking between strangers that is beneficial to both parties, as drivers and passengers are able to use the HOV lane for a quicker trip. While passengers are able to travel for free, or cheaper than via other modes of travel, and HOV drivers sometimes pay no tolls, "slugs are, above all, motivated by time saved, not money pocketed". --- It would have taken you less time to read that than to write your comment.

massysett 11y ago

What makes this even more concerning is that the driver's insurance company may decide he is carrying passengers for hire and, therefore, that the regular car insurance offers limited or no coverage. My policy says it does not apply: "To any vehicle used to carry persons or property for compensation or a fee, including but not limited to delivery of food or any other products...However, a vehicle used in an ordinary carpool on a ride sharing or cost sharing basis is covered." The question would be whether this is an "ordinary carpool on a cost sharing basis." Lawyers are paid to argue about these things.

NeutronBoy 11y ago
> The question would be whether this is an "ordinary carpool on a cost sharing basis." Lawyers are paid to argue about these things. I imagine the intent of this is to cover 'informal' car sharing - e.g. you have a roadtrip with a friend and both pay for petrol, or you drive to work with your neighbour and share costs. Not sure how it would apply to Lyft Carpool - I think initially your insurance company would push back on it.

nxzero 11y ago

Most people are more concerned about getting somewhere than reading contracts, seeing proof of insurance, etc. -- this based on seeing how commuter sharing systems work in the wild. If you're super concerned, next time you flag down a taxi make sure you make sure they're not a "rogue" cabbie; them being uninsured is the the least of your concerns.

dmix 11y ago
> Most people are more concerned about getting somewhere than reading contracts Indeed. I'd also add "Getting somewhere cheap..." as a primary incentive for these rides. I've used Craigslist "ride shares" between Montreal<>Toronto ($30) on a number of occasions. I fully understood the risks I was taking compared to paying 3x as much for a safer train ride ($100). The vehicle is advertised as being a Mercedes mini-bus [1] with seating for ~8 people but usually only has 6 passengers and plenty of extra space. The driver was usually an immigrant from China who drove the route everyday, so they know the route well and are always very efficient and reliable. Their lack of english-speaking skills was somewhat of a concern but never caused any issues in practice. I was more concerned about how they managed to survive on what was basically a minimum-wage payout for a full-day of driving. But there is clearly a supply of workers. Plus they made extra money doing deliveries of newspapers between cities. Paying for an over-packed Megabus for a comparable $30 price was out of the question because it's always full, always noisy, full of extra stops in between, smells halfway through if you're near the back, etc, etc. Consumers are capable of making economic cost comparisons. You go on Craigslist searching for bottom-of-the-market rides to save money, there's always a certain expectation of added risk. Same goes with Megabus, almost all of the worst bus drivers I've seen are employed by them, but being outside of the 'sharing' economy seems to protect them from similar scrutiny. [1] http://www.carsberry.com/photogallery/zxn3vt402kfz.jpg http://www.carsberry.com/photogallery/zxn3vt402kfz.jpg
- iMiiTH 11y ago
  Montreal<>Toronto is around $45 on VIA, no? Or are you talking about a round trip?

crdb 11y ago

Background checks? I had 2 UberX/Grab (the Singaporean Lyft) drivers who openly admitted to being ex-cons - and that in Singapore too. One even laughed that British prisons were like a 5* hotel compared to Asian ones. If these companies perform background checks, what are they checking for?

putlake 11y ago
Being an ex-con should not disqualify you from driving a cab. Especially in a country like the US that has obscene incarceration rates, and where who ends up in prison is a factor of race and wealth more than the seriousness of the crime. An ex-con has paid his or her "debt to society" by being in prison. If we don't let them get a job and earn a living, how will they get rehabilitated in society? Edit: typo/car/cab.
- crdb 11y ago
  Oh, I don't mind, personally, and I agree with you. I also think security on these apps is done by the dissuasive power of knowing that you are live-tracked and almost certain to be caught, rather than any pre filtering (which is the taxi industry's MO); this is a feature. This is what Uber checks for in California: https://newsroom.uber.com/details-on-safety/ https://newsroom.uber.com/details-on-safety/ Basically any lifetime sex offense, or terrorist register; and anything violent, or DUIs in the last 7 years. Both of my drivers would not have passed the last 7 years bit (from what I deduced from our conversation) so the standards are clearly different abroad.
- tomjen3 11y ago
  I agree if they fiddle with some numbers on a spreadsheet and payed less in taxes or smuggled drugs or something. If they beat somebody up or raped somebody I don't ever want to be near them, much less trust my life to them. I don't give a hoot if they can't get a job or be integrated in society. As far as I am concerned they are permanently broken people - probably like their victims.