4 ms·

This isn't a problem. Numerous contentious Approval Voting elections and exit polls have been held with Approval Voting, showing voters can certainly cast a vot

This isn't a problem. Numerous contentious Approval Voting elections and exit polls have been held with Approval Voting, showing voters can certainly cast a vote without being paralyzed by indecisiveness. If YOU can't make up your mind, then just don't vote. Seriously. You can get Approval Voting and just not even show up and vote. You'll still get massively better election outcomes because of all the people who do show up to vote are using an objectively better decision-making algorithm. Yes, objectively better. http://ScoreVoting.net/BayRegsFig.html http://ScoreVoting.net/BayRegsFig.html

winstonewert 11y ago
I didn't intend to suggest someone wouldn't vote because they are "paralyzed by indecisiveness." My concern is that people will vote sub-optimally due to poor information about other voters preferences and poor understanding of the strategy involved.
- eru 11y ago
  That's a valid concern. http://www.electology.org/score-voting-threshold-strategy http://www.electology.org/score-voting-threshold-strategy argues that in approval voting an honest ballot would give you (by some measure) at least 91% of the impact of a perfect tactical ballot. An honest vote in first-past-the-post, say for your awesome friend Bob for President, would give you approximately 0% return compared to the proper strategy of voting for the lesser evil of Clinton.
  - winstonewert 11y ago
    Actually, that discussion is about an honest score voting ballot, not an honest approval ballot.
    - eru 11y ago
      Hmm, the author confusingly mixes topics.
      - ClayShentrup 11y ago
        Approval Voting is Score Voting on a 0-1 scale. I tried to be clear about the distinctions as they apply. If you can cite any specific sentences that you think could be made clearer, please let me know.
        eru 11y ago
        I think I confused myself there. If you want your site to be usable for drive-by-quoting in an Internet discussion, perhaps you want to make two copies of that text, one specifically for Approval Voting and one for score voting in general? PS Overall nice website, I am reading more.
        ClayShentrup 11y ago
        Thanks. We've changed platforms a couple of times and have lost some pages and introduced some broken links and "CSS" issues along the way. We need more manpower to make it pretty, but no one cares enough about democracy to give us the millions to invest in such things. :) This was the original site from years ago: https://sites.google.com/a/electology.org/www/approval-voting https://sites.google.com/a/electology.org/www/approval-votin...
        ClayShentrup 11y ago
        Ironically, my startup just got through YC and my fingers are crossed that we're successful enough for me to one day fund such reforms, so we'll never be threatened by a Trump again.
        eru 11y ago
        Congratulations! I wonder what the right strategy would be? I guess start small and introduce sensible and simple voting everywhere you can: - Shareholder votes in a company - Where to go for dinner - Vote for mayor in a small town - ... Most people don't even know that there are different voting systems, yet alone that some of them are vastly better than others. (It's like watching people play Monopoly, when they are much better games around these days.)
  - ClayShentrup 11y ago
    This is a common logical fallacy. I'll explain. Suppose Approval Voting gives you a utility ("happiness") of 10 if you're tactical, or 9 if you're honest. Now suppose Voting System X, in which a sincere and tactical vote are obviously identical (ignore the fact that this requires the system to use randomness), gives you a utility of 7. Now do you _really_ want to take the latter system because there's no disparity in your happiness based on whether you knew the best strategy? Or would you rather take the system that gives you a better result? More details here. www.electology.org/topic/tactical-voting
    - winstonewert 11y ago
      I'm sorry, but you've completely missed the point. Nobody is talking about the "disparity in your happiness based on whether you knew the best strategy." Obviously, if the honest approval ballot give me 9 utility points, and the strategy approval ballot gives me 10 utility points that's better then the system that always give me 7 utility points. However, it seems to me that the situation is much more along the lines that an honest approval vote gives me 2 utility points, and a strategic one gives me a utility of 9. See, I hold to political positions that almost always put me in the minority. If I only approved those candidates that that I actually liked, I'd only approve candidates with effectively zero chance of winning. This would let my least favorite candidate win, thus granting me very little utility. Hence, I'll probably take System X, even if approval voting might, in theory, do better if everyone applied the strategy correctly.
    - eru 11y ago
      > This is a common logical fallacy. I'll explain. No, it's not. I agree with you. (But perhaps didn't express that right.)
- ClayShentrup 11y ago
  That's a common logical fallacy. What's important is not "how much utility did I lose by not casting the most optimal vote in Voting System X?" What's important is, "how much utility did I lose by not _using_ Voting System X?" Explained here with a simple graphic to visualize it. www.electology.org/topic/tactical-voting

winstonewert 11y ago

I didn't intend to suggest someone wouldn't vote because they are "paralyzed by indecisiveness." My concern is that people will vote sub-optimally due to poor information about other voters preferences and poor understanding of the strategy involved.

eru 11y ago
That's a valid concern. http://www.electology.org/score-voting-threshold-strategy http://www.electology.org/score-voting-threshold-strategy argues that in approval voting an honest ballot would give you (by some measure) at least 91% of the impact of a perfect tactical ballot. An honest vote in first-past-the-post, say for your awesome friend Bob for President, would give you approximately 0% return compared to the proper strategy of voting for the lesser evil of Clinton.
- winstonewert 11y ago
  Actually, that discussion is about an honest score voting ballot, not an honest approval ballot.
  - eru 11y ago
    Hmm, the author confusingly mixes topics.
    - ClayShentrup 11y ago
      Approval Voting is Score Voting on a 0-1 scale. I tried to be clear about the distinctions as they apply. If you can cite any specific sentences that you think could be made clearer, please let me know.
      - eru 11y ago
        I think I confused myself there. If you want your site to be usable for drive-by-quoting in an Internet discussion, perhaps you want to make two copies of that text, one specifically for Approval Voting and one for score voting in general? PS Overall nice website, I am reading more.
        ClayShentrup 11y ago
        Thanks. We've changed platforms a couple of times and have lost some pages and introduced some broken links and "CSS" issues along the way. We need more manpower to make it pretty, but no one cares enough about democracy to give us the millions to invest in such things. :) This was the original site from years ago: https://sites.google.com/a/electology.org/www/approval-voting https://sites.google.com/a/electology.org/www/approval-votin...
        ClayShentrup 11y ago
        Ironically, my startup just got through YC and my fingers are crossed that we're successful enough for me to one day fund such reforms, so we'll never be threatened by a Trump again.
        eru 11y ago
        Congratulations! I wonder what the right strategy would be? I guess start small and introduce sensible and simple voting everywhere you can: - Shareholder votes in a company - Where to go for dinner - Vote for mayor in a small town - ... Most people don't even know that there are different voting systems, yet alone that some of them are vastly better than others. (It's like watching people play Monopoly, when they are much better games around these days.)
- ClayShentrup 11y ago
  This is a common logical fallacy. I'll explain. Suppose Approval Voting gives you a utility ("happiness") of 10 if you're tactical, or 9 if you're honest. Now suppose Voting System X, in which a sincere and tactical vote are obviously identical (ignore the fact that this requires the system to use randomness), gives you a utility of 7. Now do you _really_ want to take the latter system because there's no disparity in your happiness based on whether you knew the best strategy? Or would you rather take the system that gives you a better result? More details here. www.electology.org/topic/tactical-voting
  - winstonewert 11y ago
    I'm sorry, but you've completely missed the point. Nobody is talking about the "disparity in your happiness based on whether you knew the best strategy." Obviously, if the honest approval ballot give me 9 utility points, and the strategy approval ballot gives me 10 utility points that's better then the system that always give me 7 utility points. However, it seems to me that the situation is much more along the lines that an honest approval vote gives me 2 utility points, and a strategic one gives me a utility of 9. See, I hold to political positions that almost always put me in the minority. If I only approved those candidates that that I actually liked, I'd only approve candidates with effectively zero chance of winning. This would let my least favorite candidate win, thus granting me very little utility. Hence, I'll probably take System X, even if approval voting might, in theory, do better if everyone applied the strategy correctly.
  - eru 11y ago
    > This is a common logical fallacy. I'll explain. No, it's not. I agree with you. (But perhaps didn't express that right.)
ClayShentrup 11y ago
That's a common logical fallacy. What's important is not "how much utility did I lose by not casting the most optimal vote in Voting System X?" What's important is, "how much utility did I lose by not _using_ Voting System X?" Explained here with a simple graphic to visualize it. www.electology.org/topic/tactical-voting