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>> The most alienating and hostile aspect of the conventional job interview is on-the-spot whiteboard programming. You shouldn't have programmers write code in

by markbnj 11y ago

>> The most alienating and hostile aspect of the conventional job interview is on-the-spot whiteboard programming. You shouldn't have programmers write code in interviews at all, if you can avoid it; instead, take a week or two and design programming questions that candidates can do at home, on their own schedule, in their own surroundings. Phenomenally good advice. I wonder, and I don't mean this to be a loaded question because I really don't know the answer: do other practitioners in other highly-skilled disciplines have to dance these sorts of dances to get hired? Does a doctor have to diagnose on the spot? Does an architect have to design a building on a whiteboard? Do they make a lawyer stand up in front of a group of partners and argue some case off the top of his head? Perhaps they do. I really don't know. But it seems to me that basically professional experience counts for little other than to keep the resume out of the trash folder.

viraptor 11y ago
Don't know about the architect, or a lawyer, but doctors do get real-life questions... although probably not the ones with years of experience and more letters in the title than in the name. A bigger difference though is that lawyers and doctors have to pass an exam to practice their profession, which already excludes a lot of people. Anyone can be a programmer.
- markbnj 11y ago
  >> Anyone can be a programmer. Anyone can be a doctor or lawyer too. I know what you mean, I think, but I don't know if I buy the distinction. There is a formal pass-the-bar testing event for lawyers. For nurses and I believe doctors there are boards. Same basic purpose AFAIK. They take these tests when they are just entering the profession. How meaningful are they years later, compared with the experience gained in the interim? My wife is a registered nurse working in cardiac critical care for seven years. If she interviews for a new job with that employment record behind her they aren't going to ask her what an aorta is, which is sort of the equivalent of what Asana is talking about doing here (and what everyone does, to be fair). So you seem to be saying that a professional nurse, as an example, can be trusted to know the basics after seven years of work, because he or she was required to take a hard test on graduation. But a programmer with seven years of experience must prove that he or she knows what a binary tree does? It's also worth pointing out that lawyers can get people jailed or cause them to lose their property. Doctors and nurses can kill them. So can we, occasionally, but it's rare. The most effective interviewing technique, as far as I am concerned is to send the candidate out for lunch with a few of your engineers and tell them to find out whether he knows what he's doing. You spend an hour talking software with some people and it's awful hard to fake knowing your stuff.
  - plinkplonk 11y ago
    "But a programmer with seven years of experience must prove that he or she knows what a binary tree does?" you'd be surprised at how many programmers with seven years experience have no freakin clue what a binary tree does! There is a reason fizzbuzz is phenomenal filter.
    - kevinmchugh 11y ago
      fizzbuzz filters for candidates who a) can do a trivial programming task in a unrealistic high-pressure, high-stakes environment, or b) signal membership in your group via memorization of hazing rituals. fizzbuzz does not filter for programmers capable of doing original, thoughtful work in a realistic work environment.
  - zeemonkee3 11y ago
    Doctors, nurses and lawyers often have to think quickly, on the spot, in life or death (or at least life-altering) situations. A developer (in a non-pathological work environment) has time to discuss and research a solution. FWIW I don't remember the last time I had to implement a binary tree since my C++ course in college; I'm not a fan of pop quizzes in interviews, but if you're going to do them then at least make it relevant to the work you do on a daily basis.

by markbnj 11y ago

viraptor 11y ago

Don't know about the architect, or a lawyer, but doctors do get real-life questions... although probably not the ones with years of experience and more letters in the title than in the name. A bigger difference though is that lawyers and doctors have to pass an exam to practice their profession, which already excludes a lot of people. Anyone can be a programmer.

markbnj 11y ago
>> Anyone can be a programmer. Anyone can be a doctor or lawyer too. I know what you mean, I think, but I don't know if I buy the distinction. There is a formal pass-the-bar testing event for lawyers. For nurses and I believe doctors there are boards. Same basic purpose AFAIK. They take these tests when they are just entering the profession. How meaningful are they years later, compared with the experience gained in the interim? My wife is a registered nurse working in cardiac critical care for seven years. If she interviews for a new job with that employment record behind her they aren't going to ask her what an aorta is, which is sort of the equivalent of what Asana is talking about doing here (and what everyone does, to be fair). So you seem to be saying that a professional nurse, as an example, can be trusted to know the basics after seven years of work, because he or she was required to take a hard test on graduation. But a programmer with seven years of experience must prove that he or she knows what a binary tree does? It's also worth pointing out that lawyers can get people jailed or cause them to lose their property. Doctors and nurses can kill them. So can we, occasionally, but it's rare. The most effective interviewing technique, as far as I am concerned is to send the candidate out for lunch with a few of your engineers and tell them to find out whether he knows what he's doing. You spend an hour talking software with some people and it's awful hard to fake knowing your stuff.
- plinkplonk 11y ago
  "But a programmer with seven years of experience must prove that he or she knows what a binary tree does?" you'd be surprised at how many programmers with seven years experience have no freakin clue what a binary tree does! There is a reason fizzbuzz is phenomenal filter.
  - kevinmchugh 11y ago
    fizzbuzz filters for candidates who a) can do a trivial programming task in a unrealistic high-pressure, high-stakes environment, or b) signal membership in your group via memorization of hazing rituals. fizzbuzz does not filter for programmers capable of doing original, thoughtful work in a realistic work environment.
- zeemonkee3 11y ago
  Doctors, nurses and lawyers often have to think quickly, on the spot, in life or death (or at least life-altering) situations. A developer (in a non-pathological work environment) has time to discuss and research a solution. FWIW I don't remember the last time I had to implement a binary tree since my C++ course in college; I'm not a fan of pop quizzes in interviews, but if you're going to do them then at least make it relevant to the work you do on a daily basis.