7 ms·

Oh, this is a fantastic and beautiful deconstruction of this argument, I LOVE this. The comparison to chronic pain is fantastic, because indeed, chronic pain i

by Fordrus 11y ago

Oh, this is a fantastic and beautiful deconstruction of this argument, I LOVE this. The comparison to chronic pain is fantastic, because indeed, chronic pain is a side effect of many conditions, and if we were able to relieve the chronic pain somehow, we certainly would, but being currently unable, we seek means to treat the chronic pain. I've often held that the most insidious part about clinical depression is its self-reinforcing nature. Deep clinical depression is throwing a person into a deep hole with thorns sticking out of the sides- every attempt to climb out of said hole results in swollen cuts and pain to the arms and body, rendering eventual escape more difficult with each struggle. Eventually, it becomes like trying to climb out of said hole with no arms at all. It's one of my life goals to discover biochemical methods to help such people regain the use of their arms, or even essentially grow new ones. I find articles like this one useful ONLY* insofar as they assist those who have gained use of their arms and cut away the brambles on the walls of the pit- for most others, it merely ends up encouraging more struggling, self-recriminations, and effectually a deepening of the hole. :(

md224 11y ago
I have this wacky idea that maybe, just maybe we should reconsider the point at which opiates would be appropriate for treating depression. I mean maybe make them a 2nd or 3rd line treatment... right now I'm pretty sure they'd only give you opiates once that whole "induce a controlled seizure" thing fails. Sure, they're addictive, but the "opium cure" was used up until the 1950's[1] and it's not like society was overrun by addicts. (I admit it's possible that the circumstances have changed, but I'd need to hear an argument for that.) Plus the fact that both Buprenorphine and Heroin-Assisted Treatment have been successful... opiates can be given as controlled medicine, and I feel like many people could benefit from them. Over 40,000 Americans die by their own hand every year.[2] I would much rather have 40,000 opioid-dependent living people if it helped them bear the weight. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18956529 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18956529 [2] http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
- Fordrus 11y ago
  Rofl! These are interesting points, and honestly, cause for deep thought. If these premises are sound, one might argue that a large part of the rise of clinical depression as the problem is presently constituted coincided with the phasing out of the so-called 'opium cure.' XD (I'm so not willing to commit to that position, but I mean, just looking at only those facts you've popped in right there, it sure looks like a possibility, no real harm in admitting the possibility of any given conclusion! :) ) I'd rather have opioid dependent folk than suicides, as well, mostly because I strongly trend towards any outcome where there continues to be choice and opportunity for betterment. Certainly worth exploring, at least in thought! :)
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - md224 11y ago
    If you're interested in studying the closest thing to it, look at the rise in popularity of Kratom, a Southeast Asian plant containing opioid alkaloids. It's commonly used by opiate addicts as a replacement therapy, and also by others as self-medication for anxiety, depression, and pain. I'm not recommending anyone try it... nobody's entirely sure if it's safe, or if it could function as a gateway drug to harder opiates. But it's worth considering the good it may be doing for some people.
    - goldfeld 11y ago
      About three years ago I tried kratom and a few hours into it I decided to start an exercise habit and I haven't stopped. I should try kratom again some day.
    - fucking_tragedy 11y ago
      > Kratom.. self-medication for anxiety, depression, and pain. > But it's worth considering the good it may be doing for some people. The only the good it's doing these people is turing them into opioid addicts with a new problem that has a good chance of eclipsing the original and a certainty of exacerbating it severely in the long-run.
darkerside 11y ago
Agreed, that's an interesting take. Do you know if medical professionals differentiate chronic depression from acute depression? Is "clinical" depression related to one or both of those?

by Fordrus 11y ago

md224 11y ago

I have this wacky idea that maybe, just maybe we should reconsider the point at which opiates would be appropriate for treating depression. I mean maybe make them a 2nd or 3rd line treatment... right now I'm pretty sure they'd only give you opiates once that whole "induce a controlled seizure" thing fails. Sure, they're addictive, but the "opium cure" was used up until the 1950's[1] and it's not like society was overrun by addicts. (I admit it's possible that the circumstances have changed, but I'd need to hear an argument for that.) Plus the fact that both Buprenorphine and Heroin-Assisted Treatment have been successful... opiates can be given as controlled medicine, and I feel like many people could benefit from them. Over 40,000 Americans die by their own hand every year.[2] I would much rather have 40,000 opioid-dependent living people if it helped them bear the weight. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18956529 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18956529 [2] http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Fordrus 11y ago
Rofl! These are interesting points, and honestly, cause for deep thought. If these premises are sound, one might argue that a large part of the rise of clinical depression as the problem is presently constituted coincided with the phasing out of the so-called 'opium cure.' XD (I'm so not willing to commit to that position, but I mean, just looking at only those facts you've popped in right there, it sure looks like a possibility, no real harm in admitting the possibility of any given conclusion! :) ) I'd rather have opioid dependent folk than suicides, as well, mostly because I strongly trend towards any outcome where there continues to be choice and opportunity for betterment. Certainly worth exploring, at least in thought! :)
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- md224 11y ago
  If you're interested in studying the closest thing to it, look at the rise in popularity of Kratom, a Southeast Asian plant containing opioid alkaloids. It's commonly used by opiate addicts as a replacement therapy, and also by others as self-medication for anxiety, depression, and pain. I'm not recommending anyone try it... nobody's entirely sure if it's safe, or if it could function as a gateway drug to harder opiates. But it's worth considering the good it may be doing for some people.
  - goldfeld 11y ago
    About three years ago I tried kratom and a few hours into it I decided to start an exercise habit and I haven't stopped. I should try kratom again some day.
  - fucking_tragedy 11y ago
    > Kratom.. self-medication for anxiety, depression, and pain. > But it's worth considering the good it may be doing for some people. The only the good it's doing these people is turing them into opioid addicts with a new problem that has a good chance of eclipsing the original and a certainty of exacerbating it severely in the long-run.

darkerside 11y ago

Agreed, that's an interesting take. Do you know if medical professionals differentiate chronic depression from acute depression? Is "clinical" depression related to one or both of those?