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The replies to your post are saying that they (Sherpas) still have the choice to move to India or America. While that's true it feels too technical. The whole p

by honua 11y ago

The replies to your post are saying that they (Sherpas) still have the choice to move to India or America. While that's true it feels too technical. The whole picture needs to be seen - that the influence of the economy around climbing is strong enough for the choice of moving vs guiding expeditions to not be equal. Consider too the original point of the article - the Sherpas are being wage abused relative to the risk they endure.

meric 11y ago
If Sherpas are on the whole choosing to guide expeditions in preference to other choices, who are we to tell them they're making the wrong choice in life? Is it because we know more about the risks of mountain climbing, and the compensation they receive for taking that risk, than they themselves do? Is it moral for me to analyse your life of bad habits, of my own judgement, and plan a better life, also of my own judgement, for you?
- kaitai 11y ago
  Ah, the false freedom of "it's their choice!" A fine way of avoiding the conversation. The guy in the article brings up a conversation he had with some Sherpa in which the Sherpa says he is making the choice between risking his life and feeding his family. That's the point here. Are you going to tell the Sherpa he can't even have the conversation because he made his choice and so he gave up his right to talk about it? I'm glad all these HN commenters recognize that these folks made an economic decision and that there are other ones possible, like moving to Delhi to be a doorman or Dubai to do construction. Now that we've gotten the obvious out of the way can we get to the interesting conversation, that of what these choices are driven by? This isn't a question of the morality of analyzing bad habits. It's like ending a conversation on heroin deaths among white rural Americans by saying that they made a choice, or saying that those girls in Nigeria kidnapped by Boko Haram made a choice by going to school. All things happen as a result of an interaction between choice and chance. To make this conversation about individual choice is to make it content-free. The content is in what we do in response to the choices we see. The labor movement was a response to exploitation in much of the world: what's the status of the labor movement in Nepal? Many countries have made efforts to diversify their economies when one fragile industry rules: what's the status of economic diversification in Nepal? How strong is the government when it comes to enforcing labor regulations? How are people taking advantage of the tourism industry to support other aspects of Nepali culture and the economy? What causes the fact that other jobs just aren't as remunerative? What about work opportunities for women, since the guides are all men? How much of the economic structure is bound up in how health care and education are delivered, since if those are all family-based then women don't have time to engage in the global workforce? How are connections with the outside world for marketing and shipping exportable goods or commodities? Is there information asymmetry that could be ameliorated to enable the Sherpa to make better economic decisions?
  - meric 11y ago
    If you're talking about governance, I suspect the assassination of the King and royal family[1] and the ensuing civil war launched by rebel communists[2], who once in power acted in the same corrupt way as the government did prior[3], and are now getting pummelled in elections and leading to tensions within the country, all of these factors contributed to an inefficient, corrupt, and impotent government that cannot enact industry protections or strong domestic/foreign policy (getting blockaded, especially after the Kathmandu earthquake[4]). There are significant proportion of real estate and capital in Kathmandu uninhabited and unused because the buildings are no longer safe. The inflation from the supply crunch from the blockade and the earthquake makes foreign currency all the more valuable. If anything, the tourism trade that brings in foreign currency is more important than ever to ensure the Sherpa community and the rest of Nepal can survive and live. Nepal could do with less, not more, interference in its affairs. Dr Govind Pokharel, vice-chairman of Nepal's National Planning Commission, admits the system is weak and corrupt but says the huge salaries on offer in NGOs and the UN means they are causing a brain drain in Nepal's civil service. "A government guy gets $200 for a month, whereas you are paying $2,000 per month at an NGO or agency, it is damaging," he says.[5] I hope I've answered most of your questions. If you're interested in continuing this conversation, drop your email here and I'll email you. My girlfriend is Nepalese and at work I also work closely with a Nepalese colleague. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_royal_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_royal_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War [3] http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/qa-nepal-maoists-forgotten-promises-160106204500095.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/qa-nepal-maoists-forgo... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_blockade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_blockade [5] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32817748 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32817748
    - ebola1717 11y ago
      > My girlfriend is Nepalese and at work I also work closely with a Nepalese colleague. Please never use this argument again. It's beyond insulting.
      - 11y ago
ebola1717 11y ago
They certainly don't just have a "choice" to move to the US either. With the earthquake, they have more options, but issues like literacy, education, language, etc. are all huge barriers. Immigrating to the middle east is the more popular option, and is probably more dangerous.

by honua 11y ago

meric 11y ago

If Sherpas are on the whole choosing to guide expeditions in preference to other choices, who are we to tell them they're making the wrong choice in life? Is it because we know more about the risks of mountain climbing, and the compensation they receive for taking that risk, than they themselves do? Is it moral for me to analyse your life of bad habits, of my own judgement, and plan a better life, also of my own judgement, for you?

kaitai 11y ago
Ah, the false freedom of "it's their choice!" A fine way of avoiding the conversation. The guy in the article brings up a conversation he had with some Sherpa in which the Sherpa says he is making the choice between risking his life and feeding his family. That's the point here. Are you going to tell the Sherpa he can't even have the conversation because he made his choice and so he gave up his right to talk about it? I'm glad all these HN commenters recognize that these folks made an economic decision and that there are other ones possible, like moving to Delhi to be a doorman or Dubai to do construction. Now that we've gotten the obvious out of the way can we get to the interesting conversation, that of what these choices are driven by? This isn't a question of the morality of analyzing bad habits. It's like ending a conversation on heroin deaths among white rural Americans by saying that they made a choice, or saying that those girls in Nigeria kidnapped by Boko Haram made a choice by going to school. All things happen as a result of an interaction between choice and chance. To make this conversation about individual choice is to make it content-free. The content is in what we do in response to the choices we see. The labor movement was a response to exploitation in much of the world: what's the status of the labor movement in Nepal? Many countries have made efforts to diversify their economies when one fragile industry rules: what's the status of economic diversification in Nepal? How strong is the government when it comes to enforcing labor regulations? How are people taking advantage of the tourism industry to support other aspects of Nepali culture and the economy? What causes the fact that other jobs just aren't as remunerative? What about work opportunities for women, since the guides are all men? How much of the economic structure is bound up in how health care and education are delivered, since if those are all family-based then women don't have time to engage in the global workforce? How are connections with the outside world for marketing and shipping exportable goods or commodities? Is there information asymmetry that could be ameliorated to enable the Sherpa to make better economic decisions?
- meric 11y ago
  If you're talking about governance, I suspect the assassination of the King and royal family[1] and the ensuing civil war launched by rebel communists[2], who once in power acted in the same corrupt way as the government did prior[3], and are now getting pummelled in elections and leading to tensions within the country, all of these factors contributed to an inefficient, corrupt, and impotent government that cannot enact industry protections or strong domestic/foreign policy (getting blockaded, especially after the Kathmandu earthquake[4]). There are significant proportion of real estate and capital in Kathmandu uninhabited and unused because the buildings are no longer safe. The inflation from the supply crunch from the blockade and the earthquake makes foreign currency all the more valuable. If anything, the tourism trade that brings in foreign currency is more important than ever to ensure the Sherpa community and the rest of Nepal can survive and live. Nepal could do with less, not more, interference in its affairs. Dr Govind Pokharel, vice-chairman of Nepal's National Planning Commission, admits the system is weak and corrupt but says the huge salaries on offer in NGOs and the UN means they are causing a brain drain in Nepal's civil service. "A government guy gets $200 for a month, whereas you are paying $2,000 per month at an NGO or agency, it is damaging," he says.[5] I hope I've answered most of your questions. If you're interested in continuing this conversation, drop your email here and I'll email you. My girlfriend is Nepalese and at work I also work closely with a Nepalese colleague. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_royal_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_royal_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War [3] http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/qa-nepal-maoists-forgotten-promises-160106204500095.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/qa-nepal-maoists-forgo... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_blockade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_blockade [5] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32817748 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32817748
  - ebola1717 11y ago
    > My girlfriend is Nepalese and at work I also work closely with a Nepalese colleague. Please never use this argument again. It's beyond insulting.
    - 11y ago

ebola1717 11y ago

They certainly don't just have a "choice" to move to the US either. With the earthquake, they have more options, but issues like literacy, education, language, etc. are all huge barriers. Immigrating to the middle east is the more popular option, and is probably more dangerous.