13 ms·

How are suicidal ideation/attempts and 'successful' suicides explained by this hypothesis?

wonderlust 11y ago
As I read this, its not a hypothesis, nor is it a theory. Its just a long value statement about how to think about what's going on. You can accept or ignore this, and it won't change the science at all.
- spangry 11y ago
  Fantastic comment. Medical history is replete with quack-theories and charlatans offering various cures. Blood-letting to balance the body's "humours" for example. The wonderful thing about scientific progress is that it shrinks the space quacks and charlatans have to peddle their pet theories and cures.
- tim333 11y ago
  As I read it "Depression and anxiety are, for the large majority of cases, emotional signals that one’s psychological health is not ideal and that one’s psychosocial/relational needs are not being met." looks like a theory and and experimentally testable and falsifiable one at that. Take a bunch of depressed people, try to fix their relationship needs along the lines mentioned in the article, survey the people who now have friends, get on with their family and so on and see if they are still depressed and compare to a control group. Simples.
  - wonderlust 11y ago
    Depression and anxiety are by definition not ideal physcological health. And almost no ones social needs are ever truly completely met. we also know already that social support helps anxiety and depression regardless of whether it is a root cause. So your test wouldn't falsify if it returned a negative value, nor support with a positive correlation.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Kenji 11y ago
The agony is so horrible that the depressed deludes himself into thinking that death is the only way out.
- fucking_tragedy 11y ago
  If agony is the motivating factor, why are the rates of suicide for people experiencing chronic pain (5%) not as high as the depressed (15%)? If the answer is that they come to the conclusion of suicide because they are deluded by depression, it comes back to the question in the OP: how does the grandparent's hypothesis explain the symptom of suicidal ideation/acts in depression?
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    Maybe depression hurts worse than pain?
tbirdz 11y ago
First let me preface this by saying that I have no training in psychology or related fields, so this comment may be complete bunk. I think that suicide could have some evolutionary advantage in a group. Say there is a member of a group who has become sick, injured, or otherwise incapacitated and is unable to contribute to the group. The group must spend more work to take care of the member than they receive back from the individuals paltry, or nonexistent contributions to the group. If the member's ailment is temporary, then it would be advantageous for the group to bear the burden of taking care of the member, as they would benefit more in the long run. However, if the member's condition is more permanent, then they represent a net loss to the group's well-being. It would then benefit the group as a whole if that member were to commit suicide, eliminating their burden from the group. I think this is something that many individuals with suicidal ideation feel on some level. They think that they cannot contribute to their group (family, friends, job, community, country, etc), and that their lack of contribution will be indefinite. For example, a person with anxiety so bad that they are unable to leave the house or get a job might feel like a burden to their family, and unable to contribute. Or, a person with depression might have such a low opinion of themselves that they are unable to see the contributions they are making, or think that their contributions are meaningless and so feel like they are not contributing anything at all worthwhile. Even though suicide could have had evolutionary advantages in the earlier days of human existence, in modern times I don't think this is the case any longer. With modern medicines and technologies, medical conditions are not as crippling as in the past, and there are more ways to contribute to a group than ever, even without being able to walk or leave the home. The difficulty would then seem to be either helping the suicidal individual to find a group and method of worthwhile contribution, or helping the individual to understand the ways they are already contributing to a group and why that contribution is worthwhile. Of course, this is just a baseless theory of mine, and I would be very curious to see if there is any actual evidence to back this up.
- haberman 11y ago
  From a purely mathematical perspective, how would evolution ever select for a trait that causes someone to destroy themselves for the benefit of others? It seems like any characteristic that prevents the individual from reproducing is by definition not selected for. But I could be misunderstanding something. Maybe it could work in the case of people who are already parents. Favoring the group could increase the likeliness of their children surviving perhaps?

As I read this, its not a hypothesis, nor is it a theory. Its just a long value statement about how to think about what's going on. You can accept or ignore this, and it won't change the science at all.

spangry 11y ago
Fantastic comment. Medical history is replete with quack-theories and charlatans offering various cures. Blood-letting to balance the body's "humours" for example. The wonderful thing about scientific progress is that it shrinks the space quacks and charlatans have to peddle their pet theories and cures.
tim333 11y ago
As I read it "Depression and anxiety are, for the large majority of cases, emotional signals that one’s psychological health is not ideal and that one’s psychosocial/relational needs are not being met." looks like a theory and and experimentally testable and falsifiable one at that. Take a bunch of depressed people, try to fix their relationship needs along the lines mentioned in the article, survey the people who now have friends, get on with their family and so on and see if they are still depressed and compare to a control group. Simples.
- wonderlust 11y ago
  Depression and anxiety are by definition not ideal physcological health. And almost no ones social needs are ever truly completely met. we also know already that social support helps anxiety and depression regardless of whether it is a root cause. So your test wouldn't falsify if it returned a negative value, nor support with a positive correlation.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Kenji 11y ago

The agony is so horrible that the depressed deludes himself into thinking that death is the only way out.

fucking_tragedy 11y ago
If agony is the motivating factor, why are the rates of suicide for people experiencing chronic pain (5%) not as high as the depressed (15%)? If the answer is that they come to the conclusion of suicide because they are deluded by depression, it comes back to the question in the OP: how does the grandparent's hypothesis explain the symptom of suicidal ideation/acts in depression?
- nitrogen 11y ago
  Maybe depression hurts worse than pain?

tbirdz 11y ago

First let me preface this by saying that I have no training in psychology or related fields, so this comment may be complete bunk. I think that suicide could have some evolutionary advantage in a group. Say there is a member of a group who has become sick, injured, or otherwise incapacitated and is unable to contribute to the group. The group must spend more work to take care of the member than they receive back from the individuals paltry, or nonexistent contributions to the group. If the member's ailment is temporary, then it would be advantageous for the group to bear the burden of taking care of the member, as they would benefit more in the long run. However, if the member's condition is more permanent, then they represent a net loss to the group's well-being. It would then benefit the group as a whole if that member were to commit suicide, eliminating their burden from the group. I think this is something that many individuals with suicidal ideation feel on some level. They think that they cannot contribute to their group (family, friends, job, community, country, etc), and that their lack of contribution will be indefinite. For example, a person with anxiety so bad that they are unable to leave the house or get a job might feel like a burden to their family, and unable to contribute. Or, a person with depression might have such a low opinion of themselves that they are unable to see the contributions they are making, or think that their contributions are meaningless and so feel like they are not contributing anything at all worthwhile. Even though suicide could have had evolutionary advantages in the earlier days of human existence, in modern times I don't think this is the case any longer. With modern medicines and technologies, medical conditions are not as crippling as in the past, and there are more ways to contribute to a group than ever, even without being able to walk or leave the home. The difficulty would then seem to be either helping the suicidal individual to find a group and method of worthwhile contribution, or helping the individual to understand the ways they are already contributing to a group and why that contribution is worthwhile. Of course, this is just a baseless theory of mine, and I would be very curious to see if there is any actual evidence to back this up.

haberman 11y ago
From a purely mathematical perspective, how would evolution ever select for a trait that causes someone to destroy themselves for the benefit of others? It seems like any characteristic that prevents the individual from reproducing is by definition not selected for. But I could be misunderstanding something. Maybe it could work in the case of people who are already parents. Favoring the group could increase the likeliness of their children surviving perhaps?