4 ms·

Now I have to install java and keep it up to date, in addition to the jar.

by mikecb 11y ago

mateuszf 11y ago
Yeah, the missing bit is that this should be done by OS vendors which sadly is not true.
- andor 11y ago
  If package management is important to you, you might want to try an operating system that integrates it natively.
  - mateuszf 11y ago
    The point of "run anywhere" is to not have to search for a special operating system.
    - andor 11y ago
      I wouldn't conflate the "run anywhere" aspect with OS-level package management. How operating systems handle updates is unrelated to Java, and affects other applications on the system as well. Think about other "run anywhere" technology like Flash, PDF (Adobe Reader), Microsoft Office, Browsers -- they also don't have a great security story and need constant updates. Adobe and Sun decided to ship their software with "Update Managers". Everybody loved them (not), but at least they fulfilled their purpose. 10 years later, Google added background updates with binary patching to Chrome on Windows and Mac OS (not needed on Linux). They decided to just install updates without the user's consent, because that will at least keep them safe. Google can get away with it because everybody expects them to know what they're doing. But I certainly don't want downloading code at runtime to become the norm. That's why distributing updates for third-party apps should be an operating system feature, as it is in all popular Linux distributions. Microsoft and Apple, please feel free to copy.
      - mateuszf 11y ago
        > That's why distributing updates for third-party apps should be an operating system feature, as it is in all popular Linux distributions. Microsoft and Apple, please feel free to copy. That's exactly what I meant when I said > Yeah, the missing bit is that this should be done by OS vendors which sadly is not true.
pjmlp 11y ago
Only if you don't deliver it alongside the application, which is what statically compiling the Go runtime means.
- mikecb 11y ago
  Are there many java applications that bundle the jre?
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Yes, it is quite common in desktop applications to do so. Usually you get the option to use the bundled one or whatever is available if one is detected already on the system. To the point that is one of the options of the new Java application packer introduced with Java 8. Also in all server deployments that we do for our customers, Java is just another configuration of the whole application packaging. Also many companies don't mind paying for commercial Java AOT compilers to native code, which then puts their Java code in the same league as Go.
  - technion 11y ago
    I really wish more applications would do it. The situation here landed with running two different RDS servers, and users having to manage running applications from different environments simultaneously. Because some Salesforce product required a specific version of Java and Oracle's PMS software required a specific, different version of Java. And both vendors only support their products by having it run with only the correct version of Java installed. And then I have this VM with this ancient version of Java I can't even find for download any more so that I can use the management interface for Brocade FC switches.

Now I have to install java and keep it up to date, in addition to the jar.

by mikecb 11y ago

Now I have to install java and keep it up to date, in addition to the jar.

mateuszf 11y ago

Yeah, the missing bit is that this should be done by OS vendors which sadly is not true.

andor 11y ago
If package management is important to you, you might want to try an operating system that integrates it natively.
- mateuszf 11y ago
  The point of "run anywhere" is to not have to search for a special operating system.
  - andor 11y ago
    I wouldn't conflate the "run anywhere" aspect with OS-level package management. How operating systems handle updates is unrelated to Java, and affects other applications on the system as well. Think about other "run anywhere" technology like Flash, PDF (Adobe Reader), Microsoft Office, Browsers -- they also don't have a great security story and need constant updates. Adobe and Sun decided to ship their software with "Update Managers". Everybody loved them (not), but at least they fulfilled their purpose. 10 years later, Google added background updates with binary patching to Chrome on Windows and Mac OS (not needed on Linux). They decided to just install updates without the user's consent, because that will at least keep them safe. Google can get away with it because everybody expects them to know what they're doing. But I certainly don't want downloading code at runtime to become the norm. That's why distributing updates for third-party apps should be an operating system feature, as it is in all popular Linux distributions. Microsoft and Apple, please feel free to copy.
    - mateuszf 11y ago
      > That's why distributing updates for third-party apps should be an operating system feature, as it is in all popular Linux distributions. Microsoft and Apple, please feel free to copy. That's exactly what I meant when I said > Yeah, the missing bit is that this should be done by OS vendors which sadly is not true.

pjmlp 11y ago

Only if you don't deliver it alongside the application, which is what statically compiling the Go runtime means.

mikecb 11y ago
Are there many java applications that bundle the jre?
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Yes, it is quite common in desktop applications to do so. Usually you get the option to use the bundled one or whatever is available if one is detected already on the system. To the point that is one of the options of the new Java application packer introduced with Java 8. Also in all server deployments that we do for our customers, Java is just another configuration of the whole application packaging. Also many companies don't mind paying for commercial Java AOT compilers to native code, which then puts their Java code in the same league as Go.
- technion 11y ago
  I really wish more applications would do it. The situation here landed with running two different RDS servers, and users having to manage running applications from different environments simultaneously. Because some Salesforce product required a specific version of Java and Oracle's PMS software required a specific, different version of Java. And both vendors only support their products by having it run with only the correct version of Java installed. And then I have this VM with this ancient version of Java I can't even find for download any more so that I can use the management interface for Brocade FC switches.