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Canada’s tech startup sector wants easier access to hire top foreign talent
- rgoldade 11y agoSwaths of Waterloo and UofT grads leave Canada for better paying work in the USA. There is no lack of talent coming out of Canadian Universities. If they can't keep their own domestic talent, how do they figure they can attrack "top foreign talent"? It seems like a false flag operation to find cheaper labour.
- niuzeta 11y agoAgreed. You try to stay in Canada for love of the country(no joke. I love it here) or just not wanting to leave familiar scene. But with insane housing market and (relatively)low wage, the temptation is strong.
- rgoldade 11y agoAbsolutely. I would love to move back to Vancouver (born+raised) but it's so expensive vs. the salary options. To be fair though, while the tech jobs in Kitchener\Waterloo pay less than SF, the cost of living is very affordable.
- andy9775 11y agoAgreed. Think of Texas salaries vs cost of living and compare that to Toronto. I have a friend that went back to school just so that he can get a TN visa and leave for the US
- 3pt14159 11y agoHousing isn't that expensive outside of Vancouver. You can buy a one bedroom condo a 2 min walk from the CN Tower for $230k to $260k USD / 300k to $350k CAD, and salaries here are lower than SF or NYC, but not by that much. Vancouver, yes, pays very poorly and has unreasonable housing prices, but that is far from all of Canada.
- hackerboos 11y agoThe housing market in Toronto is skewed. Yes apartment prices can be considered reasonable but actual houses are approaching the same levels as Vancouver. Also those $250k apartments usually have $500/month maintenance fees attached. Not all, but some.
- 3pt14159 11y agoI feel like I say this all the time, but... Real houses should be expensive in a city. The whole point of a city is densification. I don't want to live around a bunch of (usually detached) houses as far as the eye can see. I want to live where everything is happening. If you want a real house with an nice mostly quiet neighbourhood with a Canadian Tire and a Boston Pizza live in Georgetown and take the Go Train.
- pxue 11y ago<300k gets you 500sqft bachelor pad. Rent is about 1500$ for bachelor, goes up to 2k for 1bed+den. I think the 30 rent rule is a great benchmark for living affordability, renting a 1bd+den is around 1700$ for downtown in a decent building.. with utility, internet etc .. make that 1800$.. ((1700+100)*12)/0.3 = 72k a year. If you're making that dt toronto, you're doing okay.
- markeroon 11y agoCame here to say the same thing, it's such a joke. We lose huge amounts of talent to the US because of the joke that is Canadian tech salaries.
- BillyParadise 11y agoJust be glad Canada doesn't tax worldwide income for nonresidents like the US does. If they did, your cushy SV job would be much less attractive. Though the lack of snow might compensate.
- x5n1 11y agoIt would not, the US has tax treaties with countries like Canada so you don't get double-taxed. The only case in which you get double taxed is if the US has no treaty with the country. The US is one of the few countries which does this and I guess it's mostly because American contractors have been enabled by the US government to do these sorts of jobs, like for instance in the Middle East, and the government feels that this warrants a cut.
- amscanne 11y ago> It would not, the US has tax treaties with countries like Canada so you don't get double-taxed. The only case in which you get double taxed is if the US has no treaty with the country. This is only true for federal taxes. States aren't required to follow federal tax treaties. So California, for example, doesn't recognize any tax treaty with Canada. There are lots of ways you can wind up getting taxed twice.
- x5n1 11y agoNot sure how you would get double taxed this way. You only end up paying Federal tax if you are not in the country. Not State tax as you don't belong to any State.
- amscanne 11y agoDifferent countries have different rules for taxation. It's perfectly possible to be considered a resident (or deemed resident) in two places concurrently. This is frequently the case for people who split their time between multiple countries. I know many people who have been in this position.
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- personjerry 11y agoWhat we need is a Silicon Valley tier company in Waterloo again (read: not Blackberry or Opentext).
- sgift 11y agoHappens all the time here in Germany. Every year one gets at least three to four of these "we do not have enough talent, we need to hire foreign talent, make it easier" initiatives while at the same time people with the required education leave the country in droves. It was funny for a time, now it is just sad.
- jayhuang 11y agoRetaining local talent may be difficult enough as-is without even thinking about attracting foreign talent. I'm not too familiar with the situation in Ottawa (as seems to be the main focus of this article), but as a Vancouverite, it's no secret that tech salaries here are lagging behind from our American neighbours, even as close as Seattle. Despite the gap in wages, our CoL is more or less comparable (yes yes, I'm aware of > $3k/month rentals in SF, but unlike SF, $100k in Vancouver isn't considered low). That coupled with a significant drop in the Canadian dollar... Well let's just say it hurts.
- scrabble 11y agoSalaries are lagging in Waterloo as well. That's not to say they're bad or the CoL is equal, but they are lagging.
- canistr 11y agoI've always believed that if one of GoogleMicrosoftAmazonFacebook etc. started opening up more major development offices in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal (but mainly Toronto), we would stop losing so much of our top talent to the US. Competition would rise. And then we'd be able to create a much stronger talent pool, higher salaries in the tech community, and overall a better ecosystem. But none of these companies have really tapped into this system. But it seems like no executive at these companies has figured it out yet!
- cplanas 11y agoWhat is there for these companies in Canada? It seems a better idea to open development offices in other countries, that might be cheaper and have a bigger talent pool.
- rgoldade 11y agoCanada has some decent ranking schools (UofT,Waterloo,UBC,SFU,etc.) and many Canadians don't want to move to the US (plus the Canadian dollar is worth less lately).
- cplanas 11y agoYes, but even if Canada has a really big pool of talented developers for its size, the base problem is Canada's population size. According this ranking (http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2016/computer-science-information-systems#sorting=rank+region=+country=222+faculty=+stars=false+search= http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/universit...) Canada has 4 universities ranking in the TOP 100 for CS. The EU has 30. China has 5, and it's much cheaper.
- adomanico 11y agoThe issue isn't policy, the issue is companies in Canada are not competitive enough with their salaries.
- robert_foss 11y agoThat is simply not true. For the past 12 months I've fruitlessly tried to obtain a work permit for a Toronto based company. The salary was quite competitive, but ultimately having 5 consecutive work permit applications fail just wasted too much time.
- serge2k 11y agoIf salaries were actually competitive the job would probably have gone to a Canadian.
- cixtor 11y agoFor someone who have been trying to immigrate to Canada for the last six years (from a South American country), that have invested hundreds of dollars investigating how Canadian immigration laws work, that have worked for three years for an US company in the security field, I find inconsistent all the news saying that the country needs professionals to keep the internal work force but then you find out that the government puts so many barriers in the immigration process that at the end you have to give up. I hope the government (including the Quebecoise) becomes flexible in the future so people can find better opportunities to immigrate there.
- serge2k 11y agoCanada's tech sector can shut up about wanting foreign talent until they pay enough to retain canadian talent.
- calm_cl 11y agoAnyone can tell me what "top foreign talent" means here? I just thought startup companies cannot afford to hire top talented workers. I thought top talented workers usually launch startup.. not hired.
- MrDresden 11y agoCurrently staying in Canada as a tourist, while working remote for a European FinTech and have had a Express Entry application going for 6 months now. And I can tell you that the whole system is a joke. I have a BSc in CS, 6 years work experience in the tech sector, near perfect score on the english language tests and I have 440 points (EE uses a point system). I have tried everything I can think of trying to have the CiC acknowledge that I have a job and an income (to gain more points) but to no avail. I would be able to pay my taxes in Canada as my home country has a dual tax agreement with Canada. However if I were to take a job flipping burgers, through the job bank program, I would get extra 300-400 points and be allowed to move in (in all likelyhood since the points would place me high enough to qualify). Again, this system is a complete joke.
- nikanj 11y agoStart working as a contractor for your employer, and you get +600 points for having a job offer from your me.ltd contractor company.
- sterl 11y agoThis is great advice, cross-check it but thanks for posting nikanj
- hackerboos 11y agoThe old system (FSW) was better, you didn't need to a job to get a visa which is practically mandated by the new EE system. I applied whilst living back in the UK. They issued the visa whilst I was still there and I managed to swing a job by doing remote interviews. I only just scraped in on points - if I wasn't married then we wouldn't have qualified. If your country has a working holiday agreement with Canada then you are better coming in on that first.
- etblg 11y agoYou want more top tech talent? Pay more. I have a pretty well paying comfy job in Toronto and even I keep considering just jumping to the states because it pays so much better. This is just a way of not having to pay what people are worth while trying to get talent.
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- nadeemk 11y agoI'm a foreign worker worker who graduated from a top school in Canada but now work in Silicon Valley. Interviewing in Canada was a nightmare, I was called back 3 times to interview more and more people for the same company, salaries were abysmally low and I felt a general cautious vibe / old school bureaucracy in hiring. There are hundreds of thousands of wannabe tech immigrants stuck in the broken US immigration process who should be prime targets for Canadian Tech Companies. But the fact that these people would rather be abused by lifelong delays imposed by US govt. than instantly get a Canadian Residency and Citizenship is testament on how unattractive opportunities in Canada are.
- nish1500 11y agoI've had mixed experience in Canada. Yes, the companies here are traditional and salaries are low, but that isn't all of the market. I have interviewed at a few exciting companies, all of which pay good salaries. Not SV-high, but higher than what Canada is used to. I'd much rather take a pay cut, than spend 17 years to get residency in a country that doesn't want me.
- caffodian 11y agoThere are no shortcuts to solving brain drain. Find a compelling way to solve it (paying more, giving more opportunities to grow is a good start) and let's talk from there.
- danielhooper 11y agoCanadian tech workers are underpaid and the weak dollar is making it even worse. You can practically double your purchasing power by going over the border and working in the states. In my experience, finding a job here in Toronto as a programmer/developer/engineer/whatever has been VERY tough without a CS background (or any degree for that matter). Despite launching an app in the app store I still struggle to get interviews for even junior level positions, which in Toronto translates to around $50k - $60k. I could make the same amount of money waiting tables if I really wanted to.
- drubio 11y ago"Junior level positions, which in Toronto translates to around $50k - $60k. I could make the same amount of money waiting tables if I really wanted to." So the going rates in Canada are in that range. I interviewed for a remote senior position (5+ years exp) for a start-up in Toronto (that from brief research looked to be profitable, so I went ahead). My jaw dropped when they said they were targeting $25 (CAD) an hour, with the exchange rate that's less than $19 (US) an hour. My sentiment was the same as yours, at $19 (US) an hour I could make the same amount of money teaching plain English anywhere in the world. It looks like they don't even do a cross-check for other industry rates, just fluent English can net you the same rates as an English teacher in practically any market.
- danielhooper 11y agoIt's mostly an estimated guess. It seems your real example is more accurate. How long ago was this? I was recently working for a start-up in Toronto as well. They told me they could no longer afford me after billing them only ~$10,000 CAD for two months of work building the only product they were ever going to have. It worked out to close to $20-$25 CAD an hour as well.
- eulji 11y agoWell. I do not want to be rude but launching an app does not equal that you are entitled to 60k a year. This is becoming more clear than ever that doing IT no longer equals good salary in crowded places like London etc. Demand is decreasing and companies that offer services for free are undervaluing (think Google, Microsoft) our salaries. Not to be rude again but there's a fierce competition out there and good enough does no longer translate into instant $$$. Canada is still a very rich country and when you compare the wages with India,Vietnam or Eastern/Central Europe it's hard to compete. These people are becoming "good enough" and paying more becomes harder and harder to justify if you can just hire senior dev in India or Eastern Europe for 40k $ a year. It's basically the same with degrees. Your customer does not care if the app / product has been made by a person with a degree. It's the same for us. We do not want to pay (money or time does not matter) for a degree if we can get the education for free...somehow.
- WizardlySquid 11y agoCompanies are are only for open borders and easy immigration because they want to push wages down and replace people who expect to be treated well and paid a fair wage with people who will get kicked out of the country if they step out of line and who are just grateful they have something to send back home to their families.
- eulji 11y agoWhat salaries do you guys consider competitive ? Do you all compare it to the SV salaries ? If we exclude SV salaries how much more your avg US tech worker earns compared to his canadian peer. And is this concentration of wealth good for the economy overall ? I mean the canadians experience exactly the same. Even the high paid workers in Vancouver cannot afford housing as the "super rich" chinese that climbed upon the backs of their fellow countrymen and then swarmed Canada. Don't you think that such concentration of wealth is not really a good idea ?
- golergka 11y agoHave just been thinking of moving to Canada in the next few years, because it's immigration process seems to be friendlier to professionals without a degree — but comments here have been discouraging, to say the least. What's a good place to find more information about Canada's tech (gamedev in particular) to adequately measure my chances of finding a relocation offer?
- saiprashanth93 11y agoSame here, looking to move to Canada in the near future. Any info on how long the whole process takes and the other relevant info for web devs would be helpful.
- Devthrowaway80 11y agoI left Canada not too long ago. With the current exchange rate, my base here in SV is 350% of what I made in Canada for a much less stressful job. When you take the absurd RSU grant I'm getting into account, my estimated take home for the year is going to be nearly 10x that of my total Canadian compensation. The cost of living in SV is higher, but it is not THAT much higher. The problem is that they just don't pay enough to compete. I'd move home in a heartbeat, but I won't work for a decade there for what I can make in a year here.