4 ms·

Not all modern art is devoid of artistic skill. The good photorealists are pretty amazing [1]. Richard Estes is my favourite [2]. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org

Not all modern art is devoid of artistic skill. The good photorealists are pretty amazing [1]. Richard Estes is my favourite [2]. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photorealism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photorealism 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Estes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Estes

eternalban 11y ago
> artistic skill I think the term technical skill is more appropriate. The distinction between (high) art and (master) craft is a fascinating topic, and far too enmeshed in other orthogonal concerns (such as class, power, and ideology). High civilizational art rarely is, and possibly can not be, democratic or accessible.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  I thought of using the term technical skill, but given Collin’s opinion on modern art I felt artistic was more appropriate - his views about modern art is more than a critic of a lack of technical skills. I do agree with you the distinction between art and craft is a very interesting topic :)
  - eternalban 11y ago
    [My apologies for the late reply -- network issues] In my view painting ended as an Art† with Cubism. This was a glorious death [1] but the end nonetheless. The limits of this medium -- with the medium considered as an artistic protoplasm of a living civilization and culture -- were effectively probed. I'll admit I haven't read OP and Mr. Collin's views, but to be perfectly frank, the thinking artists also arrived at the same the end conclusion [2] and in case of Duchamp quite effectively pointed the realities of plastic arts in the coming era [3] but sadly the kids didn't quite get his Gallic humor. Note for example, that in his serious 'artistic' work [4] he was basically reduced to drawing diagrams. I was watching Burke's connections the other day and at the end of the first season's episode, he was riffing on how we -- the allegedly Sapiens Homo -- are no longer getting the penetrating look at our reality and the human condition from the artists, but rather engineers and scientists. I agree with this. A "school" of art is a pedagogical platform. What contribution does Mr. Collin think painting can make at this point? To point out the vacuity and surface deep modern Western culture? Already done. [5][6] (A fun aside: put these last two next to pics of the 'leadership' choices currently on menu for the American electorate ..) There remains the psychological aspects that medium can still contain/convey, but that is the personal realm. Plastic arts are, imo, quite an effective tool in self-analysis, but why on earth would I think that my psychological investigations belong in a public space or would serve any purpose other than (possible future ;) biographical matter? †: definitive &| prophetic expression of the human condition in context of a civilizational lens. [1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Georges_Braque,_1909-10,_La_guitare_%28Mandora,_La_Mandore%29,_oil_on_canvas,_71.1_x_55.9_cm,_Tate_Modern,_London.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Georges_Braqu... | Georges Braque, 1909-10, La guitare [2]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/c/c0/20150719231100!Duchamp_-_Nude_Descending_a_Staircase.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/c/c0/20150... | Nude Descending A Staircase | M. Duchamp [3]: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c6/dd/23/c6dd23f8f1054c644134698b1ac0fe0e.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c6/dd/23/c6dd23f8f... | the entirely misunderstood "father of conceptual art". [4]: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/56/6f/4c/566f4cc40ecc01a526d17d6d7adf2cf1.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/56/6f/4c/566f4cc40... [5]: https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2013/3/4/1362406527737/Roy-Lichtenstein-010.jpg https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/picture... | Roy Lichtenstein [6]: https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/emilyborg/files/2014/11/Warhol_3.jpg https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/emilyborg/files/2014/11/Warhol_3.jpg | Warhol [p.s. for clarity on notions]: Take Van Eyck's Arnolfini Portrait [a], "circa 1390–1441" and the beginnings of Protestant Reformation [b] circa same time frame. Hope the connection between the use of personal-point-of-view perspective, and Protestant assertion of the right of layman to read and interpret scripture is clear. This is Art. [a]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnolfini_Portrait#/media/File:Van_Eyck_-_Arnolfini_Portrait.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnolfini_Portrait#/media/File... [b]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism
    - clock_tower 11y ago
      > What contribution does Mr. Collin think painting can make at this point? To point out the vacuity and surface deep modern Western culture? From the article: "Collins explains: 'My general feeling in terms of art making is the train got off the rails in the 1860s and 1870s, and my practical instinct is to go back to where it was, try to put it back, fix it up, and start going again.' "'Our culture,' he continued, 'has inherited the idea that if artists are not avant-garde they cannot have a significant role. That’s a fallacy we’ve inherited from some Parisian nut-job radicals. The rejection of beauty is so accepted. It’s high time that we as a culture attend to our beauty position.'" I think it's fair to call this a pedagogical platform, and a novel contribution to the world of art in general.
    - clock_tower 11y ago
      Thinking further, perhaps you could categorize this movement as an elaborate parody. "Old Master" style expressed a contentment with life as it currently existed, a sense of the beauty of things, and a sense of timelessness which aren't really present today; a painting of a bottle of Coke in the style of a bowl of fruit, or a stockbroker in a BMW in the style of a hunter on his horse, is both an impressive technical accomplishment and a very elaborate joke...
entee 11y ago
Also, it's not as easy as it looks to make "modern" art work. It may look easy to make a Jackson Pollock, but it's not so easy to not have it turn to mud as you make it. Perhaps not as technically difficult as an old master painting, but not necessarily easy. Beyond that, the skill in composition, understanding the message you want to communicate, and doing so effectively is very much present in modern art. That said, I wonder how many pieces in our current modern art museums will have real staying power. Art is hard to define, but I think to have staying power it needs to speak in some way to the larger human condition. A lot of modern art seems to ring only one note, with so much context being required for understanding that maybe it'll be hard for someone 50 years hence to relate.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Leaving aside artistic merit, a lot of modern art is poorly constructed out of unstable materials. We may not have much of todays modern art in 50 years purely because the artists don’t know how (or don’t want) to make something that will last.
  - entee 11y ago
    True, not to mention performance art which by definition is ephemeral. I wish there was some middle ground between the avant-guarde that Collins decries and some of the more recent ideas in art. I think he's not correct in wholesale rejection of everything post-1870. That throws out even semi-representational work like impressionism, fauvism, and surrealism just to name a few.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      >I think he's not correct in wholesale rejection of everything post-1870. It comes down to taste, of course, but I take strong exception to the post-1870 cutoff. I actually like a lot of Pollock's work but do find the artwork that grabs me post-1950 or so at somewhere like MOMA pretty thin. On the other hand, I can also live without yet another Renaissance Madonna--however technically proficient it may be.

eternalban 11y ago

> artistic skill I think the term technical skill is more appropriate. The distinction between (high) art and (master) craft is a fascinating topic, and far too enmeshed in other orthogonal concerns (such as class, power, and ideology). High civilizational art rarely is, and possibly can not be, democratic or accessible.

danieltillett 11y ago
I thought of using the term technical skill, but given Collin’s opinion on modern art I felt artistic was more appropriate - his views about modern art is more than a critic of a lack of technical skills. I do agree with you the distinction between art and craft is a very interesting topic :)
- eternalban 11y ago
  [My apologies for the late reply -- network issues] In my view painting ended as an Art† with Cubism. This was a glorious death [1] but the end nonetheless. The limits of this medium -- with the medium considered as an artistic protoplasm of a living civilization and culture -- were effectively probed. I'll admit I haven't read OP and Mr. Collin's views, but to be perfectly frank, the thinking artists also arrived at the same the end conclusion [2] and in case of Duchamp quite effectively pointed the realities of plastic arts in the coming era [3] but sadly the kids didn't quite get his Gallic humor. Note for example, that in his serious 'artistic' work [4] he was basically reduced to drawing diagrams. I was watching Burke's connections the other day and at the end of the first season's episode, he was riffing on how we -- the allegedly Sapiens Homo -- are no longer getting the penetrating look at our reality and the human condition from the artists, but rather engineers and scientists. I agree with this. A "school" of art is a pedagogical platform. What contribution does Mr. Collin think painting can make at this point? To point out the vacuity and surface deep modern Western culture? Already done. [5][6] (A fun aside: put these last two next to pics of the 'leadership' choices currently on menu for the American electorate ..) There remains the psychological aspects that medium can still contain/convey, but that is the personal realm. Plastic arts are, imo, quite an effective tool in self-analysis, but why on earth would I think that my psychological investigations belong in a public space or would serve any purpose other than (possible future ;) biographical matter? †: definitive &| prophetic expression of the human condition in context of a civilizational lens. [1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Georges_Braque,_1909-10,_La_guitare_%28Mandora,_La_Mandore%29,_oil_on_canvas,_71.1_x_55.9_cm,_Tate_Modern,_London.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Georges_Braqu... | Georges Braque, 1909-10, La guitare [2]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/c/c0/20150719231100!Duchamp_-_Nude_Descending_a_Staircase.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/c/c0/20150... | Nude Descending A Staircase | M. Duchamp [3]: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c6/dd/23/c6dd23f8f1054c644134698b1ac0fe0e.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c6/dd/23/c6dd23f8f... | the entirely misunderstood "father of conceptual art". [4]: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/56/6f/4c/566f4cc40ecc01a526d17d6d7adf2cf1.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/56/6f/4c/566f4cc40... [5]: https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2013/3/4/1362406527737/Roy-Lichtenstein-010.jpg https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/picture... | Roy Lichtenstein [6]: https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/emilyborg/files/2014/11/Warhol_3.jpg https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/emilyborg/files/2014/11/Warhol_3.jpg | Warhol [p.s. for clarity on notions]: Take Van Eyck's Arnolfini Portrait [a], "circa 1390–1441" and the beginnings of Protestant Reformation [b] circa same time frame. Hope the connection between the use of personal-point-of-view perspective, and Protestant assertion of the right of layman to read and interpret scripture is clear. This is Art. [a]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnolfini_Portrait#/media/File:Van_Eyck_-_Arnolfini_Portrait.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnolfini_Portrait#/media/File... [b]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism
  - clock_tower 11y ago
    > What contribution does Mr. Collin think painting can make at this point? To point out the vacuity and surface deep modern Western culture? From the article: "Collins explains: 'My general feeling in terms of art making is the train got off the rails in the 1860s and 1870s, and my practical instinct is to go back to where it was, try to put it back, fix it up, and start going again.' "'Our culture,' he continued, 'has inherited the idea that if artists are not avant-garde they cannot have a significant role. That’s a fallacy we’ve inherited from some Parisian nut-job radicals. The rejection of beauty is so accepted. It’s high time that we as a culture attend to our beauty position.'" I think it's fair to call this a pedagogical platform, and a novel contribution to the world of art in general.
  - clock_tower 11y ago
    Thinking further, perhaps you could categorize this movement as an elaborate parody. "Old Master" style expressed a contentment with life as it currently existed, a sense of the beauty of things, and a sense of timelessness which aren't really present today; a painting of a bottle of Coke in the style of a bowl of fruit, or a stockbroker in a BMW in the style of a hunter on his horse, is both an impressive technical accomplishment and a very elaborate joke...

entee 11y ago

Also, it's not as easy as it looks to make "modern" art work. It may look easy to make a Jackson Pollock, but it's not so easy to not have it turn to mud as you make it. Perhaps not as technically difficult as an old master painting, but not necessarily easy. Beyond that, the skill in composition, understanding the message you want to communicate, and doing so effectively is very much present in modern art. That said, I wonder how many pieces in our current modern art museums will have real staying power. Art is hard to define, but I think to have staying power it needs to speak in some way to the larger human condition. A lot of modern art seems to ring only one note, with so much context being required for understanding that maybe it'll be hard for someone 50 years hence to relate.

danieltillett 11y ago
Leaving aside artistic merit, a lot of modern art is poorly constructed out of unstable materials. We may not have much of todays modern art in 50 years purely because the artists don’t know how (or don’t want) to make something that will last.
- entee 11y ago
  True, not to mention performance art which by definition is ephemeral. I wish there was some middle ground between the avant-guarde that Collins decries and some of the more recent ideas in art. I think he's not correct in wholesale rejection of everything post-1870. That throws out even semi-representational work like impressionism, fauvism, and surrealism just to name a few.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    >I think he's not correct in wholesale rejection of everything post-1870. It comes down to taste, of course, but I take strong exception to the post-1870 cutoff. I actually like a lot of Pollock's work but do find the artwork that grabs me post-1950 or so at somewhere like MOMA pretty thin. On the other hand, I can also live without yet another Renaissance Madonna--however technically proficient it may be.