5 ms·

Mammalian diving reflex

73 points by Smaug123 11y ago

jimothyhalpert7 11y ago
David Blaine: How I held my breath for 17 minutes - https://www.ted.com/talks/david_blaine_how_i_held_my_breath_for_17_min https://www.ted.com/talks/david_blaine_how_i_held_my_breath_...
- junto 11y ago
  I don't know why, but reading that video transcript makes me feel a bit physically sick. The thought of deliberately holding ones breath for so long goes against every basic natural instinct I have. An extraordinary achievement.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
    Indeed extraordinary, especially considering that the static apnea world record is 11 min 35 sec. To clarify: I'm totally calling bullshit on his claim. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freediving#AIDA_recognized_world_records https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freediving#AIDA_recognized_wor...
    - jimothyhalpert7 11y ago
      I'm very glad someone brought this up. The whole talk is kind of weird. David is extremely nervous, drinking all the time, and then (spontaneously) bursts into tears in the end. One comment read that he was 'high', and, while there's no way (or point) to verify this, it describes his abnormal nervousness pretty well. Adding to this the fact that this achievement hasn't been verified, leads to a very strange TED Talk. So, I started wondering, whether a deliberately bad TED talk can be considered a good magic trick...?
    - underbluewaters 11y ago
      That's the record for static apnea on regular air. After breathing up with pure o2, you can push the limits quite a bit more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_apnea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_apnea
      - YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
        The accreditation for _most_ of the records with the pure oxygen is from Guinness. I'm really not at all convinced by that. The highest record with pure oxygen that's recognised by AIDA is at 16:32. That's half a minute under what Blaine claims. So, still, not convinced.
  - soci 11y ago
    The catalan Aleix Segura is the current static apnea World Champion. He won the title last June in a competition in Belgrad with an astonishing apnea time of 10min 07sec A month ago he went for the pure show and broke the Guiness Record by using pure oxygen. Breathold time: 24min 03sec. A video of that perfomance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L89kY5ewgqU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L89kY5ewgqU For an apnea aficionado like me it's a pleasure listening Aleix talk about trainings, chemistry, physics or dietetics. A shame he has not made any talks for the great public because this guy has a lot information to share. Is quite strange that no general media has ever approached him yet. At least not as far as I know.
    - agumonkey 11y ago
      Not a good place to die suddenly. I max out at 1min20. (edit: 2min00 woo)
docaholic 11y ago
Did an experiment on the dive reflex as part of an undergrad course in university; hooked up a student (volunteered and willing of course)to a heart monitor and put their face in a bowl of water. Heart rate plummeted from 72 BPM (resting) down to 39. It was pretty cool to see
- Smaug123 11y ago
  According to the Wikipedia page, this effect can be used to defibrillate infants. Really cool. I'm going to have to try this experiment out on myself now. Wonder if it has to be cold water or will warm water do.
  - docaholic 11y ago
    If I recall correctly, it has to be done in cold-ish water! Warm water above a certain temperature doesn't invoke the dive reflex (I think we used water at 10 degrees Celcius for the experiment), although I'd have to read up on my experiment again to be sure. Sounds like a fun Easter activity :)
- soperj 11y ago
  I really wonder how far my heart rate would drop, since I'm in the low 40s at resting.
monk_e_boy 11y ago
I snorkel and free dive a bit. It's amazing that you can train your body to go further and longer underwater. Just a few sessions in a pool will help. I have no idea what is actually improving inside me, but some thing is. And free dive fins are the best. If you've never tried any, try to get hold of a pair. It's fun zooming through the water like a seal.
- luxpir 11y ago
  To clarify for the downvoters, freediving has many techniques for slowing heartrate and conserving oxygen. It's one of the best ways to learn to 'control' your body.
monk_e_boy 11y ago
I snorkel and free dive a bit. It's amazing that you can train your body to go further and longer underwater. Just a few sessions in a pool will help. I have no idea what is actually improving inside me, but some thing is. And free dive find are the best. If you've never tried any, try to get hold of a pair. It's fun zoom ing through the water like a seal.
dghughes 11y ago
> Peripheral vasoconstriction in the extremities ... I wonder if this is why seals, whales evolved flippers instead of big limbs less warm blood wasted in big limbs.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- biot 11y ago
  I suspect it's the same reason we use thin propellers for moving boats through the water rather than strapping a bunch of prosthetic limbs to a motor.
Natsu 11y ago
You can also see instinct take over when people are drowning. By watching this series on YouTube, I learned to spot exactly when drowning takes over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0KTqPloUiU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0KTqPloUiU [Side note: DO NOT read any of the comments. They are particularly obnoxious and there is nothing worthwhile. You have been warded.]
- id 11y ago
  For Youtube standards, the comments are pretty normal. You see these kinds of comments on every video about tragic situations (and, to be honest, in any other video). It's easily one of the worst communities, probably even worse than image boards.
  - Natsu 11y ago
    I think that simply reinforces the idea that YouTube comments aren't worth reading :)
yaacov 11y ago
Triggering this manually is a pretty good emergency treatment for panic attacks. Just tilt your head back, hold your breath, and press an icepack to your forehead.
- sciencerobot 11y ago
  Or perform the vagal maneuver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagal_maneuver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagal_maneuver.
bleachedsleet 11y ago
How is this reflex in humans affected by beta blockers?
- robbiep 11y ago
  Logically, if your heart is already slow then it is going to have a hard time going slower (ie you are already blocking sympathetic drive and when sympathetic drive decreases further via the reflex it isn't going to change much). Since beta blockers are largely beta 2 selective these days it shouldn't affect capillary vasoconstriction, although since the article specifically mentions capillary over arteriolar vasoconstriction I don't know whether that is accomplished by adrenoceptors or what particular receptor is responsible. So: no or minimal change to heart rate, likely unchanged effect to vasoconstriction
jdswain 11y ago
I get allergy headaches, and I've found that the single best way of reducing them is to dive into cold water. Works way better than painkillers, but when you have a bad headache it's not really something you want to do. I think it's to do with the diving reflex, that's the only reason I can think of.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  The next time you get a headache can you try just putting your face into cold water (less than 10C)? If it is the diving reflex then this should work.
- luxpir 11y ago
  I used to do something similar, with positive effects. My wife just tried this with her regular/non-allergy headache and thinks it has cleared it instantly.
bruckie 11y ago
My introduction to the diving reflex was pretty stressful. Our daughter was born a few weeks early. Her lungs weren't mature enough yet, so she was in the NICU for a while. One day we were changing her diaper right before her evening feed, around 8 p.m. She was already fussy because she was hungry, and then she got really upset because she pooped halfway through the diaper change, so we had to start over. She was really mad, screaming at the top of her little lungs. In the middle of all of this, I looked over at the monitor (babies are always on monitors at the NICU) and noticed that her heart rate had jumped from ~160 bpm (typical for a newborn) to ~320 bpm. I asked the nurse about it and she said it was a little high, but that it was probably just because she was upset. After we wrapped things up, our daughter started eating and quickly calmed down. Strangely, though, the monitor hadn't budged: still ~320 bpm. I asked the nurse if the monitor was correct, and apparently it was, because things quickly turned serious. Double-check with a stethoscope. EKG ordered. Doctors we'd never met appeared out of nowhere. Pediatric cardiologist called. Another IV started. 10 people crowded around our tiny daughter. The neonatologist texted the EKG printout to the cardiologist (at a hockey game with her daughter, we later learned), and she and diagnosed a supraventricular tachycardia. Untreated, it would result in organ failure within hours. The top priority became getting the heart rate back to normal. I assumed they would use drugs or some kind of electrical stimulation, but they told me about their preferred treatment, and it seemed almost like quackery: sticking ice packs on our daughter's face and forehead. They got their bags of ice water ready, applied them simultaneously, waited precisely 6 seconds, and removed them. A few seconds later, still ~320 bpm. It hadn't worked. They planned to try once more, and then try with drugs through the IV. Ice packs ready. Applied. 6 seconds. Again, nothing. Disappointment, anxiety, fear, worry. And then it happened: five or six seconds after they removed the ice packs, our daughter's heart rate instantly dropped back to ~160 bpm. There was no gradual decline: it was a step function. It almost seemed like magic. The quackery wasn't so quackish after all. That was my introduction to the diving reflex. (Postscript: our daughter has been on medication since that day, but she's getting old enough that they're starting to taper it off, and soon she'll be medication-free. The idea is that if she has a reoccurrence, she'll notice and tell us. Then, guess what the prescribed treatment is? Yep: stick her face in a bowl of ice water.) Further reading: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22389355 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22389355 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1544966/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1544966/ http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/supraventricular-tachycardia-treatment-overview http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/supraventricular-tachy...

73 points by Smaug123 11y ago

David Blaine: How I held my breath for 17 minutes - https://www.ted.com/talks/david_blaine_how_i_held_my_breath_for_17_min https://www.ted.com/talks/david_blaine_how_i_held_my_breath_...

junto 11y ago
I don't know why, but reading that video transcript makes me feel a bit physically sick. The thought of deliberately holding ones breath for so long goes against every basic natural instinct I have. An extraordinary achievement.
- YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
  Indeed extraordinary, especially considering that the static apnea world record is 11 min 35 sec. To clarify: I'm totally calling bullshit on his claim. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freediving#AIDA_recognized_world_records https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freediving#AIDA_recognized_wor...
  - jimothyhalpert7 11y ago
    I'm very glad someone brought this up. The whole talk is kind of weird. David is extremely nervous, drinking all the time, and then (spontaneously) bursts into tears in the end. One comment read that he was 'high', and, while there's no way (or point) to verify this, it describes his abnormal nervousness pretty well. Adding to this the fact that this achievement hasn't been verified, leads to a very strange TED Talk. So, I started wondering, whether a deliberately bad TED talk can be considered a good magic trick...?
  - underbluewaters 11y ago
    That's the record for static apnea on regular air. After breathing up with pure o2, you can push the limits quite a bit more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_apnea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_apnea
    - YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
      The accreditation for _most_ of the records with the pure oxygen is from Guinness. I'm really not at all convinced by that. The highest record with pure oxygen that's recognised by AIDA is at 16:32. That's half a minute under what Blaine claims. So, still, not convinced.
- soci 11y ago
  The catalan Aleix Segura is the current static apnea World Champion. He won the title last June in a competition in Belgrad with an astonishing apnea time of 10min 07sec A month ago he went for the pure show and broke the Guiness Record by using pure oxygen. Breathold time: 24min 03sec. A video of that perfomance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L89kY5ewgqU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L89kY5ewgqU For an apnea aficionado like me it's a pleasure listening Aleix talk about trainings, chemistry, physics or dietetics. A shame he has not made any talks for the great public because this guy has a lot information to share. Is quite strange that no general media has ever approached him yet. At least not as far as I know.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    Not a good place to die suddenly. I max out at 1min20. (edit: 2min00 woo)

docaholic 11y ago

Did an experiment on the dive reflex as part of an undergrad course in university; hooked up a student (volunteered and willing of course)to a heart monitor and put their face in a bowl of water. Heart rate plummeted from 72 BPM (resting) down to 39. It was pretty cool to see

Smaug123 11y ago
According to the Wikipedia page, this effect can be used to defibrillate infants. Really cool. I'm going to have to try this experiment out on myself now. Wonder if it has to be cold water or will warm water do.
- docaholic 11y ago
  If I recall correctly, it has to be done in cold-ish water! Warm water above a certain temperature doesn't invoke the dive reflex (I think we used water at 10 degrees Celcius for the experiment), although I'd have to read up on my experiment again to be sure. Sounds like a fun Easter activity :)
soperj 11y ago
I really wonder how far my heart rate would drop, since I'm in the low 40s at resting.

monk_e_boy 11y ago

I snorkel and free dive a bit. It's amazing that you can train your body to go further and longer underwater. Just a few sessions in a pool will help. I have no idea what is actually improving inside me, but some thing is. And free dive fins are the best. If you've never tried any, try to get hold of a pair. It's fun zooming through the water like a seal.

luxpir 11y ago
To clarify for the downvoters, freediving has many techniques for slowing heartrate and conserving oxygen. It's one of the best ways to learn to 'control' your body.

monk_e_boy 11y ago

I snorkel and free dive a bit. It's amazing that you can train your body to go further and longer underwater. Just a few sessions in a pool will help. I have no idea what is actually improving inside me, but some thing is. And free dive find are the best. If you've never tried any, try to get hold of a pair. It's fun zoom ing through the water like a seal.

dghughes 11y ago

> Peripheral vasoconstriction in the extremities ... I wonder if this is why seals, whales evolved flippers instead of big limbs less warm blood wasted in big limbs.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
biot 11y ago
I suspect it's the same reason we use thin propellers for moving boats through the water rather than strapping a bunch of prosthetic limbs to a motor.

Natsu 11y ago

You can also see instinct take over when people are drowning. By watching this series on YouTube, I learned to spot exactly when drowning takes over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0KTqPloUiU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0KTqPloUiU [Side note: DO NOT read any of the comments. They are particularly obnoxious and there is nothing worthwhile. You have been warded.]

id 11y ago
For Youtube standards, the comments are pretty normal. You see these kinds of comments on every video about tragic situations (and, to be honest, in any other video). It's easily one of the worst communities, probably even worse than image boards.
- Natsu 11y ago
  I think that simply reinforces the idea that YouTube comments aren't worth reading :)

yaacov 11y ago

Triggering this manually is a pretty good emergency treatment for panic attacks. Just tilt your head back, hold your breath, and press an icepack to your forehead.

sciencerobot 11y ago
Or perform the vagal maneuver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagal_maneuver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagal_maneuver.

bleachedsleet 11y ago

How is this reflex in humans affected by beta blockers?

robbiep 11y ago
Logically, if your heart is already slow then it is going to have a hard time going slower (ie you are already blocking sympathetic drive and when sympathetic drive decreases further via the reflex it isn't going to change much). Since beta blockers are largely beta 2 selective these days it shouldn't affect capillary vasoconstriction, although since the article specifically mentions capillary over arteriolar vasoconstriction I don't know whether that is accomplished by adrenoceptors or what particular receptor is responsible. So: no or minimal change to heart rate, likely unchanged effect to vasoconstriction

jdswain 11y ago

I get allergy headaches, and I've found that the single best way of reducing them is to dive into cold water. Works way better than painkillers, but when you have a bad headache it's not really something you want to do. I think it's to do with the diving reflex, that's the only reason I can think of.

danieltillett 11y ago
The next time you get a headache can you try just putting your face into cold water (less than 10C)? If it is the diving reflex then this should work.
luxpir 11y ago
I used to do something similar, with positive effects. My wife just tried this with her regular/non-allergy headache and thinks it has cleared it instantly.

bruckie 11y ago

My introduction to the diving reflex was pretty stressful. Our daughter was born a few weeks early. Her lungs weren't mature enough yet, so she was in the NICU for a while. One day we were changing her diaper right before her evening feed, around 8 p.m. She was already fussy because she was hungry, and then she got really upset because she pooped halfway through the diaper change, so we had to start over. She was really mad, screaming at the top of her little lungs. In the middle of all of this, I looked over at the monitor (babies are always on monitors at the NICU) and noticed that her heart rate had jumped from ~160 bpm (typical for a newborn) to ~320 bpm. I asked the nurse about it and she said it was a little high, but that it was probably just because she was upset. After we wrapped things up, our daughter started eating and quickly calmed down. Strangely, though, the monitor hadn't budged: still ~320 bpm. I asked the nurse if the monitor was correct, and apparently it was, because things quickly turned serious. Double-check with a stethoscope. EKG ordered. Doctors we'd never met appeared out of nowhere. Pediatric cardiologist called. Another IV started. 10 people crowded around our tiny daughter. The neonatologist texted the EKG printout to the cardiologist (at a hockey game with her daughter, we later learned), and she and diagnosed a supraventricular tachycardia. Untreated, it would result in organ failure within hours. The top priority became getting the heart rate back to normal. I assumed they would use drugs or some kind of electrical stimulation, but they told me about their preferred treatment, and it seemed almost like quackery: sticking ice packs on our daughter's face and forehead. They got their bags of ice water ready, applied them simultaneously, waited precisely 6 seconds, and removed them. A few seconds later, still ~320 bpm. It hadn't worked. They planned to try once more, and then try with drugs through the IV. Ice packs ready. Applied. 6 seconds. Again, nothing. Disappointment, anxiety, fear, worry. And then it happened: five or six seconds after they removed the ice packs, our daughter's heart rate instantly dropped back to ~160 bpm. There was no gradual decline: it was a step function. It almost seemed like magic. The quackery wasn't so quackish after all. That was my introduction to the diving reflex. (Postscript: our daughter has been on medication since that day, but she's getting old enough that they're starting to taper it off, and soon she'll be medication-free. The idea is that if she has a reoccurrence, she'll notice and tell us. Then, guess what the prescribed treatment is? Yep: stick her face in a bowl of ice water.) Further reading: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22389355 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22389355 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1544966/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1544966/ http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/supraventricular-tachycardia-treatment-overview http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/supraventricular-tachy...