4 ms·

The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible as the evidence for water being wet. Cons

The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible as the evidence for water being wet. Considering that it's vitally important, often ignored, devoid of negative side effects, and free to implement, I think you're the one being irresponsible.

kzhahou 11y ago
It might help, but the advice to Get Physical, just by itself, isn't useful. The disease itself works against a will to exercise. The best advice and only one worth giving is to please seek professional help if you think (or know) you have depression.
facetube 11y ago
It's a great adjunct IMO, but it doesn't necessarily fix the underlying problem reliably. I got my usual run up to 21 miles before I developed fractures in my shins and the coping strategy fell apart. I should have spent some of that time with a doctor.
DanBC 11y ago
Here we have a person expressing psychologic pain. And then another person, with no medical training and no psychologic training dismisses any possible cause of that pain and says "go for a jog". It's not a helpful way to give that advice. And it might not be useful advice. > The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible How do you explain the meta-analyses that show weak results for exercise? http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > However, it is not clear if research actually shows that exercise is an effective treatment for depression. > Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression. > Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies. > Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies. > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive. > The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive.
- farresito 11y ago
  dismisses any possible cause of that pain and says "go for a jog" Well, thank you. Apparently recommending to incorporate jogging is dismissing any possible other cause. Furthermore, I say that I still haven't beaten depression, even after doing sport, which implies that even I do not consider the lack of sport to be the only cause.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  What is there to explain? From your post it looks like exercise can have positive effects on depression. I haven't read anywhere here that it's the only solution. But it's sometimes as effective as other known treatments (according to your own link) and it's cheap and easy to implement. Anti-depressants and therapy don't work for everyone, either. There are people in this thread crying for help. They are looking for advice. Yes, going to see a doctor should be at the top of your list. But let's not pretend the medical system is perfect, or that we all live in San Francisico with a ton of progressively thinking doctors. There's still a stigma with mental health, even in the medical field.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    > Anti-depressants and therapy don't work for everyone, either. No, they don't. But they are more likely to work than exercise, and they're easier to try than exercise. The problem with recommending exercise is that it's not effective for most people, and can increase feelings of hopelessness and despair in people who try it but who see no effect. This makes it harder for them to seek help from a qualified professional. It also requires considerable effort - 30 minutes of exercise 5 times a week isn't something that most people with a severe depression can do. (And here the recommendation was more than that! 30 minutes a day.) Here the suggestion was not "try exercise on top of seeing a doctor", the suggestion was "try exercise". Don't forget that suicide is a leading cause of death (second leading cause of death in US males aged between 13 and 35 http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/ http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/ ) so there's a risk of real harm here. If people are going to give unsolicited medical advice to someone with a potentially fatal illness they should probably spend a bit of time to see if there's any evidence to support their advice, or they should make it much clearer that they're sharing their anecdotal experience in an attempt to empathise. Every single time depression is mentioned on HN someone will say "try exercise". It's a meme that needs to end because it's potentially harmful, mostly not helpful, and it can feel really dismissive to people with depression.
0xcde4c3db 11y ago
> The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible as the evidence for water being wet. No, it isn't, but people really, really like to think that it is [1]. Like most other interventions worth talking about, there are situations it improves, situations where it doesn't change much, and situations it worsens (those "consult your physician before starting an exercise program" disclaimers aren't just for show). [1] http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2010/11/30/exercise-and-depression-its-complicated/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2010/11/30/ex...
a3n 11y ago
Anecdote of one: Looking back, I've been depressed most of my adult life, from 20 to my current 58. A few years ago I went to CrossFit for a couple years. I went from not being able to do a single pullup, to being able to crack off 20+. It didn't help. For me. I still wanted to kill myself, and all the while I went to the gym I felt it was pointless. Again, that's an anecdote of one. The cause of my depression and someone else's, and the effective treatment, are potentially very different. Great if exercise helps a particular depression. But if it doesn't, the that person is fit and depressed. A mental health professional is the best bet.
- NikolaeVarius 11y ago
  I can relate. I went on a fitness binge a bit back. These days I can run a 10k in 45 minutes pretty easily, hit very good lifts for my weight class, and eat salads basically every single meal. After work and after the gym, all I want to do is drink or anything similar to get rid of all the thoughts in my head about how pointless it all is. Why the hell do I care if I can do all that crap. I feel like how others do. I work 60-70 hours a week because work is the only thing that keeps me away from more depressive thoughts. I don't enjoy doing anything. I've tried going on vacations, hiking, all the things people say young people should do. All it ever does is make me more depressed that I don't enjoy these things at all, especially since I'm in my early 20s. I've tried doing hacking with Arduino and Raspberry Pi's because I'm supopsed to enjoy that, but no matter what, I don't care because it all seems like junk. I don't care about that shit at all. I sold a majority of my stuff, and the majority of my possessions fits into a single SUV. No permanent furniture, nothing that costs more than a grand. Owning stuff brings me no joy, so why even bother having it around.
  - studentrob 11y ago
    Are you curious about anything? Travel, girls, sports? Could you put yourself in a new environment to renew some curiosity?
    - Zeeem 11y ago
      I don't recommend giving this advice to people who are seriously depressed. Speaking as someone who went through that for two years, it's more of a disease than a lifestyle problem. I could have done all these things and still have been miserably depressed. What helped me was talk therapy, medication (the biggest factor), and having really supportive friends.

kzhahou 11y ago

It might help, but the advice to Get Physical, just by itself, isn't useful. The disease itself works against a will to exercise. The best advice and only one worth giving is to please seek professional help if you think (or know) you have depression.

facetube 11y ago

It's a great adjunct IMO, but it doesn't necessarily fix the underlying problem reliably. I got my usual run up to 21 miles before I developed fractures in my shins and the coping strategy fell apart. I should have spent some of that time with a doctor.

DanBC 11y ago

Here we have a person expressing psychologic pain. And then another person, with no medical training and no psychologic training dismisses any possible cause of that pain and says "go for a jog". It's not a helpful way to give that advice. And it might not be useful advice. > The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible How do you explain the meta-analyses that show weak results for exercise? http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > However, it is not clear if research actually shows that exercise is an effective treatment for depression. > Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression. > Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies. > Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies. > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive. > The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive.

farresito 11y ago
dismisses any possible cause of that pain and says "go for a jog" Well, thank you. Apparently recommending to incorporate jogging is dismissing any possible other cause. Furthermore, I say that I still haven't beaten depression, even after doing sport, which implies that even I do not consider the lack of sport to be the only cause.
forgetsusername 11y ago
What is there to explain? From your post it looks like exercise can have positive effects on depression. I haven't read anywhere here that it's the only solution. But it's sometimes as effective as other known treatments (according to your own link) and it's cheap and easy to implement. Anti-depressants and therapy don't work for everyone, either. There are people in this thread crying for help. They are looking for advice. Yes, going to see a doctor should be at the top of your list. But let's not pretend the medical system is perfect, or that we all live in San Francisico with a ton of progressively thinking doctors. There's still a stigma with mental health, even in the medical field.
- DanBC 11y ago
  > Anti-depressants and therapy don't work for everyone, either. No, they don't. But they are more likely to work than exercise, and they're easier to try than exercise. The problem with recommending exercise is that it's not effective for most people, and can increase feelings of hopelessness and despair in people who try it but who see no effect. This makes it harder for them to seek help from a qualified professional. It also requires considerable effort - 30 minutes of exercise 5 times a week isn't something that most people with a severe depression can do. (And here the recommendation was more than that! 30 minutes a day.) Here the suggestion was not "try exercise on top of seeing a doctor", the suggestion was "try exercise". Don't forget that suicide is a leading cause of death (second leading cause of death in US males aged between 13 and 35 http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/ http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/ ) so there's a risk of real harm here. If people are going to give unsolicited medical advice to someone with a potentially fatal illness they should probably spend a bit of time to see if there's any evidence to support their advice, or they should make it much clearer that they're sharing their anecdotal experience in an attempt to empathise. Every single time depression is mentioned on HN someone will say "try exercise". It's a meme that needs to end because it's potentially harmful, mostly not helpful, and it can feel really dismissive to people with depression.

0xcde4c3db 11y ago

> The evidence for physical activity being good for just about every ailment under the sun is about as incontrovertible as the evidence for water being wet. No, it isn't, but people really, really like to think that it is [1]. Like most other interventions worth talking about, there are situations it improves, situations where it doesn't change much, and situations it worsens (those "consult your physician before starting an exercise program" disclaimers aren't just for show). [1] http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2010/11/30/exercise-and-depression-its-complicated/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2010/11/30/ex...

a3n 11y ago

Anecdote of one: Looking back, I've been depressed most of my adult life, from 20 to my current 58. A few years ago I went to CrossFit for a couple years. I went from not being able to do a single pullup, to being able to crack off 20+. It didn't help. For me. I still wanted to kill myself, and all the while I went to the gym I felt it was pointless. Again, that's an anecdote of one. The cause of my depression and someone else's, and the effective treatment, are potentially very different. Great if exercise helps a particular depression. But if it doesn't, the that person is fit and depressed. A mental health professional is the best bet.

NikolaeVarius 11y ago
I can relate. I went on a fitness binge a bit back. These days I can run a 10k in 45 minutes pretty easily, hit very good lifts for my weight class, and eat salads basically every single meal. After work and after the gym, all I want to do is drink or anything similar to get rid of all the thoughts in my head about how pointless it all is. Why the hell do I care if I can do all that crap. I feel like how others do. I work 60-70 hours a week because work is the only thing that keeps me away from more depressive thoughts. I don't enjoy doing anything. I've tried going on vacations, hiking, all the things people say young people should do. All it ever does is make me more depressed that I don't enjoy these things at all, especially since I'm in my early 20s. I've tried doing hacking with Arduino and Raspberry Pi's because I'm supopsed to enjoy that, but no matter what, I don't care because it all seems like junk. I don't care about that shit at all. I sold a majority of my stuff, and the majority of my possessions fits into a single SUV. No permanent furniture, nothing that costs more than a grand. Owning stuff brings me no joy, so why even bother having it around.
- studentrob 11y ago
  Are you curious about anything? Travel, girls, sports? Could you put yourself in a new environment to renew some curiosity?
  - Zeeem 11y ago
    I don't recommend giving this advice to people who are seriously depressed. Speaking as someone who went through that for two years, it's more of a disease than a lifestyle problem. I could have done all these things and still have been miserably depressed. What helped me was talk therapy, medication (the biggest factor), and having really supportive friends.