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And yours are too low! :) The end result isn't necessarily software - why does it have to be? For example, data collection/structuring is something that a lot

by bpchaps 11y ago

And yours are too low! :) The end result isn't necessarily software - why does it have to be? For example, data collection/structuring is something that a lot of programmers are very interested in and can be used for others' work. It might end up on a website, but that's just a dissemination platform at that point. Lots of people truly want to help out. But when an app that doesn't solve anything isn't on, or will ever be on, any app store is paraded as an amazing thing in the news, all you'll end up with a thousand mediocre "helpful" apps and a wasted pool of creativity and motivation. That, and a lot of interested folks who're now jaded because the things they make "aren't cool". Mild projection there ;). Edit to add on expectations: motivation and expectation are often a pair. By having high expectations for yourself and others, you tend to push yourself beyond what you normally would think is possible. This goes for everything, but especially with tech, where "That'd take a thousand people!" only takes one. The motivation factor? It's fun.

pedalpete 11y ago
Or the end result doesn't have to be software used by victims (which I suspect most were).
argonaut 11y ago
I consider data collection to be part of software, so even that I don't think will do much to solve domestic violence. Otherwise, you haven't really shown why we need to have higher expectations, other than some vague statement about pushing people. You're just going to get bigger websites / mobile apps / data science analyses, if you set expectations higher.
- bpchaps 11y ago
  What I'm suggesting is that there are many, many ways to untie gordian knots. Building bigger * is already happening - it's probably why your expectations are so low! Solving enormous social problems using complexity is a meme that needs to die - this is where bureaucracies and the like come from. Social situations are just too complex to write a complex system that addresses everything. Simple answers to complex problems that come close to the nuance as possible because of their "mediocreness" (think unix, x86, etc). My high expectations are in others' ability to find those simple "do one thing and do it well" solutions together.
  - argonaut 11y ago
    Aside from vague platitudes, you haven't actually proposed any ways in which a tech hackathon would be able to help.
    - bpchaps 11y ago
      Ultimately it doesn't. They're effectively useless. What does help is getting a small group together to simply solve a small problem over time. Complete one project that should have a small improvement within a city, then do another, then do another. It's something that takes a lot of time, is unbearably iterative, but if enough folks do it, then it has large impact. Since you keep calling me vague, I'll give you an example.. I'm working with a small group in trying to force the city of Chicago to validate parking tickets before they write them. We're very, very slowly finding all invalid parking tickets with the intention of raising a class action lawsuit. It's been surprisingly challenging, but we think we'll be able to do it. The reason I try to be vague on these things is so that others can dive down the rabbit hole at whatever pace they want to and fix whatever they want in their own way. By telling someone what to do, you inhibit their creativity for discovery and to some level, their confidence. That rabbit hole just leads towards some very, very interesting things that intellectual constraints would fuck over. For example, this ticketing project landed me in Rahm's competitor's office and handing them my analysis for their campaign. After zero contact from them and a lot in between, this led (in a roundabout way) to a lawsuit against the mayor of Chicago for his phone records, which happens in April. At that point, it'll be almost a year and 5 months since the initial FOIA request. I normally hate TED talks, but this is what got me started. It sums up decently well what kind of attitude and thought process is needed: https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_liu_why_ordinary_people_need_to_understand_power https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_liu_why_ordinary_people_need_...

by bpchaps 11y ago

pedalpete 11y ago

Or the end result doesn't have to be software used by victims (which I suspect most were).

argonaut 11y ago

I consider data collection to be part of software, so even that I don't think will do much to solve domestic violence. Otherwise, you haven't really shown why we need to have higher expectations, other than some vague statement about pushing people. You're just going to get bigger websites / mobile apps / data science analyses, if you set expectations higher.

bpchaps 11y ago
What I'm suggesting is that there are many, many ways to untie gordian knots. Building bigger * is already happening - it's probably why your expectations are so low! Solving enormous social problems using complexity is a meme that needs to die - this is where bureaucracies and the like come from. Social situations are just too complex to write a complex system that addresses everything. Simple answers to complex problems that come close to the nuance as possible because of their "mediocreness" (think unix, x86, etc). My high expectations are in others' ability to find those simple "do one thing and do it well" solutions together.
- argonaut 11y ago
  Aside from vague platitudes, you haven't actually proposed any ways in which a tech hackathon would be able to help.
  - bpchaps 11y ago
    Ultimately it doesn't. They're effectively useless. What does help is getting a small group together to simply solve a small problem over time. Complete one project that should have a small improvement within a city, then do another, then do another. It's something that takes a lot of time, is unbearably iterative, but if enough folks do it, then it has large impact. Since you keep calling me vague, I'll give you an example.. I'm working with a small group in trying to force the city of Chicago to validate parking tickets before they write them. We're very, very slowly finding all invalid parking tickets with the intention of raising a class action lawsuit. It's been surprisingly challenging, but we think we'll be able to do it. The reason I try to be vague on these things is so that others can dive down the rabbit hole at whatever pace they want to and fix whatever they want in their own way. By telling someone what to do, you inhibit their creativity for discovery and to some level, their confidence. That rabbit hole just leads towards some very, very interesting things that intellectual constraints would fuck over. For example, this ticketing project landed me in Rahm's competitor's office and handing them my analysis for their campaign. After zero contact from them and a lot in between, this led (in a roundabout way) to a lawsuit against the mayor of Chicago for his phone records, which happens in April. At that point, it'll be almost a year and 5 months since the initial FOIA request. I normally hate TED talks, but this is what got me started. It sums up decently well what kind of attitude and thought process is needed: https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_liu_why_ordinary_people_need_to_understand_power https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_liu_why_ordinary_people_need_...