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> What parts? Stuff like how you were calling into question the parent's perception of what the NSA does with "electrical signals" coming from their house. I

> What parts? Stuff like how you were calling into question the parent's perception of what the NSA does with "electrical signals" coming from their house. I got the impression that you were framing the parent as a crackpot. It's just ... there's better ways of making your points than to call people out like that, whether they really are a crackpot or (most likely) NOT. You may not have tried to be harsh, but you were. And you have no empathy for the parent, which is a bummer. You made and are making good points in this retort, but they're mostly lost in the negativity. I'll get off your lawn now.

williamcotton 11y ago
First off, I'm not calling the guy a crackpot, and you're not even claiming that I did either! I was using a rhetorical device to show that OP's statements can very well be perceived as crackpot ideas to almost everyone outside of forums like this. I don't think you know what the word empathy means. It isn't related to some sugar-coating process. It just refers to a capability to relate to another individual. I used to have all of these same paranoid delusions about the government/the system/the man... and then you know what? I got older, I met a lot of people who care a lot about civil order, and I realized the world is full of nice and friendly people and there are plenty of ways for me to get involved to make sure the world keeps getting better! I feel like I can empathize very well with people like OP. And since I don't think of myself as a crackpot when I shared these same thoughts, I don't think of OP as a crackpot. I now know that many of my beliefs were juvenile and undeveloped and I think OP's are as well. I'm sure OP is fine. He just needs to grow up a bit and stop trying to blame "the man" for his problems. This makes me guilty of being patronizing but not lacking in empathy. Is there a better way to go about trying to help OP grow as an individual? Sure, but it's not going to happen on some Internet forum, which is why I mainly avoid this place! Layers upon layers of irony! I just think you kids spend too much time on your phones and you don't really know how things work out there. You're fine to hang out on my lawn whenever you want, but I would appreciate it if you didn't check your phone every 30 seconds while you're a guest on my property, it's very rude. And also, seriously, just go outside more. You're looking too pale these days. You're like a ghost. Ya'll need some outside perspective.
- Malician 11y ago
  Everything you say here is extremely condescending and assumes that you are more mature and experienced than the reader. I'm not going to toot my own horn, but I will say this about the aged elders I have met who were fantastic and respectable people, and from whom I learned the most: their main feature was humility, and knowing that they did not in fact know everything. Not everyone likes paper books. Some people like trees, but also using a laptop under one. Some people are growing up gay or trans in a hard-right reactionary community and their only outlet is the Internet. Others simply prefer the company of they know online to those they happen to meet on the street. I'm glad you have experienced personal growth in your own life. You think the views you used to hold were underdeveloped - fine! But don't pattern match other people you meet to those views and assume they just need to get past them and think like you do now. That's rude and presumptuous.
  - williamcotton 11y ago
    > Everything you say here is extremely condescending and assumes that you are more mature and experienced than the reader. That's just your interpretation. Other people are entitled to their own interpretation of what I'm saying. I don't feel like I'm being condescending, I feel like I am being patronizing. Those are related concepts but they're not the same thing. Also, if you didn't notice, and this could just be my fault, but I was trying to be comical! I was playing the patronizing character who shouts "NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!" > I'm not going to toot my own horn, but I will say this about the aged elders I have met who were fantastic and respectable people, and from whom I learned the most: their main feature was humility, and knowing that they did not in fact know everything. You have no idea who I am nor what I'm like. How about you offer up some of your personal opinions and you let me take a crack at judging you? I'm willing to have a very open and honest talk about some very real instances of paranoid delusions that seem to dominate the conversation in our forums. I think these are destructive and unnecessary fixations. This is what makes me patronizing. I'm telling you that if you think that "the government is watching everything that we all do, all the time" and that if this makes you unhappy, well, there's a reason for that. It's a matter of perspective. I'm offering a paternal perspective. I've been there, I've done that, and I'm here to tell you that you're being a bunch of doofuses. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! > Not everyone likes paper books. Some people like trees, but also using a laptop under one. Ok, but that doesn't change the political and legal realities of what it means to have a paper book and what it means to use a laptop connected to the Internet. > Some people are growing up gay or trans in a hard-right reactionary community and their only outlet is the Internet. They have many more outlets than the Internet! I would argue that there are much more productive and healthy outlets than those found on Internet forums. It is at least unhealthy to think of the Internet as being someone's only outlet. Growing up and being a teenager is difficult anywhere and I definitely found a lot of support on the Internet when I was a teenager in the mid 90s but shying away from the real world was never a long term solution. If there are hard-right reactionary communities that are oppressing teenagers then we need to figure out how to fix the root cause of those issues, and not just paper over them by avoiding the confrontation! > Others simply prefer the company of they know online to those they happen to meet on the street. And just like conversations on the street, you should expect people to be able to hear your conversations when you're publicly broadcasting information from your physical location! NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!
jsprogrammer 11y ago
>Stuff like how you were calling into question the parent's perception of what the NSA does with "electrical signals" coming from their house. I got the impression that you were framing the parent as a crackpot. It's just ... there's better ways of making your points than to call people out like that, whether they really are a crackpot or (most likely) NOT. I don't see how this frames anyone as a crackpot. Collecting electrical signals is exactly one of the things the NSA does, and there aren't many other simpler ways to describe it. Even General Hayden talks publicly about such collections and how he would "jump on the comms of anyone that is interesting" (may be a very slight paraphrasing). >And you have no empathy for the parent, which is a bummer. It would be hilarious everytime someone says something like this, if it didn't indicate that someone out there actually believes things like this. You are really judging someone's empathy through text on HN and claiming they lack it? Even just responding to someone's post is an act of some empathy.
- EdSharkey 11y ago
  > Even just responding to someone's post is an act of some empathy. You sound like a precious snowflake when you talk like this. You don't dignify anyone simply by responding to them. Yes, I was judging @williamcotton for lacking empathy for the grandparent. Read some of his responses, and you'll see I was right. @williamcotton thought grandparent needed some tough love advice from a benevolent sage - NO THANKS! Empathy, not sympathy and certainly not scorn, is what grandparent deserves. And real empathy requires applying the Platinum Rule, not the Golden one. Look it up.

williamcotton 11y ago

First off, I'm not calling the guy a crackpot, and you're not even claiming that I did either! I was using a rhetorical device to show that OP's statements can very well be perceived as crackpot ideas to almost everyone outside of forums like this. I don't think you know what the word empathy means. It isn't related to some sugar-coating process. It just refers to a capability to relate to another individual. I used to have all of these same paranoid delusions about the government/the system/the man... and then you know what? I got older, I met a lot of people who care a lot about civil order, and I realized the world is full of nice and friendly people and there are plenty of ways for me to get involved to make sure the world keeps getting better! I feel like I can empathize very well with people like OP. And since I don't think of myself as a crackpot when I shared these same thoughts, I don't think of OP as a crackpot. I now know that many of my beliefs were juvenile and undeveloped and I think OP's are as well. I'm sure OP is fine. He just needs to grow up a bit and stop trying to blame "the man" for his problems. This makes me guilty of being patronizing but not lacking in empathy. Is there a better way to go about trying to help OP grow as an individual? Sure, but it's not going to happen on some Internet forum, which is why I mainly avoid this place! Layers upon layers of irony! I just think you kids spend too much time on your phones and you don't really know how things work out there. You're fine to hang out on my lawn whenever you want, but I would appreciate it if you didn't check your phone every 30 seconds while you're a guest on my property, it's very rude. And also, seriously, just go outside more. You're looking too pale these days. You're like a ghost. Ya'll need some outside perspective.

Malician 11y ago
Everything you say here is extremely condescending and assumes that you are more mature and experienced than the reader. I'm not going to toot my own horn, but I will say this about the aged elders I have met who were fantastic and respectable people, and from whom I learned the most: their main feature was humility, and knowing that they did not in fact know everything. Not everyone likes paper books. Some people like trees, but also using a laptop under one. Some people are growing up gay or trans in a hard-right reactionary community and their only outlet is the Internet. Others simply prefer the company of they know online to those they happen to meet on the street. I'm glad you have experienced personal growth in your own life. You think the views you used to hold were underdeveloped - fine! But don't pattern match other people you meet to those views and assume they just need to get past them and think like you do now. That's rude and presumptuous.
- williamcotton 11y ago
  > Everything you say here is extremely condescending and assumes that you are more mature and experienced than the reader. That's just your interpretation. Other people are entitled to their own interpretation of what I'm saying. I don't feel like I'm being condescending, I feel like I am being patronizing. Those are related concepts but they're not the same thing. Also, if you didn't notice, and this could just be my fault, but I was trying to be comical! I was playing the patronizing character who shouts "NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!" > I'm not going to toot my own horn, but I will say this about the aged elders I have met who were fantastic and respectable people, and from whom I learned the most: their main feature was humility, and knowing that they did not in fact know everything. You have no idea who I am nor what I'm like. How about you offer up some of your personal opinions and you let me take a crack at judging you? I'm willing to have a very open and honest talk about some very real instances of paranoid delusions that seem to dominate the conversation in our forums. I think these are destructive and unnecessary fixations. This is what makes me patronizing. I'm telling you that if you think that "the government is watching everything that we all do, all the time" and that if this makes you unhappy, well, there's a reason for that. It's a matter of perspective. I'm offering a paternal perspective. I've been there, I've done that, and I'm here to tell you that you're being a bunch of doofuses. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! > Not everyone likes paper books. Some people like trees, but also using a laptop under one. Ok, but that doesn't change the political and legal realities of what it means to have a paper book and what it means to use a laptop connected to the Internet. > Some people are growing up gay or trans in a hard-right reactionary community and their only outlet is the Internet. They have many more outlets than the Internet! I would argue that there are much more productive and healthy outlets than those found on Internet forums. It is at least unhealthy to think of the Internet as being someone's only outlet. Growing up and being a teenager is difficult anywhere and I definitely found a lot of support on the Internet when I was a teenager in the mid 90s but shying away from the real world was never a long term solution. If there are hard-right reactionary communities that are oppressing teenagers then we need to figure out how to fix the root cause of those issues, and not just paper over them by avoiding the confrontation! > Others simply prefer the company of they know online to those they happen to meet on the street. And just like conversations on the street, you should expect people to be able to hear your conversations when you're publicly broadcasting information from your physical location! NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!

jsprogrammer 11y ago

>Stuff like how you were calling into question the parent's perception of what the NSA does with "electrical signals" coming from their house. I got the impression that you were framing the parent as a crackpot. It's just ... there's better ways of making your points than to call people out like that, whether they really are a crackpot or (most likely) NOT. I don't see how this frames anyone as a crackpot. Collecting electrical signals is exactly one of the things the NSA does, and there aren't many other simpler ways to describe it. Even General Hayden talks publicly about such collections and how he would "jump on the comms of anyone that is interesting" (may be a very slight paraphrasing). >And you have no empathy for the parent, which is a bummer. It would be hilarious everytime someone says something like this, if it didn't indicate that someone out there actually believes things like this. You are really judging someone's empathy through text on HN and claiming they lack it? Even just responding to someone's post is an act of some empathy.

EdSharkey 11y ago
> Even just responding to someone's post is an act of some empathy. You sound like a precious snowflake when you talk like this. You don't dignify anyone simply by responding to them. Yes, I was judging @williamcotton for lacking empathy for the grandparent. Read some of his responses, and you'll see I was right. @williamcotton thought grandparent needed some tough love advice from a benevolent sage - NO THANKS! Empathy, not sympathy and certainly not scorn, is what grandparent deserves. And real empathy requires applying the Platinum Rule, not the Golden one. Look it up.