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> Re: the conversation about walk-ability of cities. The key concept here is density. We need to value density as it allows for more compact living. Another th

> Re: the conversation about walk-ability of cities. The key concept here is density. We need to value density as it allows for more compact living. Another thing that perhaps needs to be valued more is sound insulation. I currently live in an apartment in a dense, walk-able city in Europe. However, I'm tempted to buy myself a house and a car, because I'm so sick and tired of all the noise that comes from living in an apartment in a dense area (neighbors, construction nearby, drunk people late at night etc.). Without good sound insulation, I don't think density works, although maybe it's just me who are more sensitive to this than other people.

drabiega 11y ago
It's interesting that you say that. In an earlier conversation on density and walk-able neighborhoods, I seem to recall a number of people from Europe saying that noise wasn't as much of a problem as in dense parts of the US because of different construction traditions. (Europe is a diverse place, of course, so it might just be down to regional differences.)
- jensen123 11y ago
  That could be. It's especially renovations in the same building where I live that has been the problem here. I'm guessing this is a bigger problem (more renovations!) in a large building, than a small one.
  - semi-extrinsic 11y ago
    Regarding renovations: whenever someone takes a rotary hammer to concrete, it will be fairly noisy no matter how good the sound proofing is. That sound will travel in the entire structure even if the building is 400 feet wide.
- ams6110 11y ago
  Any apartment or house old enough to have plaster walls will be much more soundproof. That stuff is dense and heavy and it's usually at least an inch thick, more than sheetrock/drywall.
- rtpg 11y ago
  Europe is a big place, I think the construction norms can differ too. I was in some appartments in Nantes, France, and the windows could let you hear outside (so things like buses going by in the day). In my Tokyo apartment I hear police cars go by (actually, every Sunday I get the black cars from the fascists[0]). I think there's some better sound isolation in France rather than Tokyo (at least in smaller appartments), but Japan also knows that making too much noise is pretty rude. Usually you're not allowed to play instruments in your place unless you got explicit permission when signing the contract (usually implies that the unit has better isolation). And you try not to hit the walls too often. I think it's part "don't be a dick", and part "get used to it". It's likely possible to isolate better but it's likely expensive on smaller units (because of the space required). Though honestly, even when I was in Texas suburbs, there's still noise from traffic and neighbors. It was easier to get peace and quiet though. [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai
rifung 11y ago
Yes please. As someone who is the one making the noise and feels bad for neighbors, I really want better sound insulation. I am renting a house which is much larger than I need just because I practice piano and don't want to disturb my neighbors. If not for this I would rent a place closer to work.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- pilom 11y ago
  They make sound insulating and deadening foam. Put the piano in a small internal room and line the room with acoustic foam: http://amzn.to/1o9CGjb http://amzn.to/1o9CGjb Living closer to work must be worth 2 of these for $160?
  - theoh 11y ago
    An electronic piano with headphones may even be an acceptable alternative.
    - Decade 11y ago
      No. Just no.
      - CalRobert 11y ago
        There are full acoustic/electric hybrid pianos with mechanical actions that have the ability to be used with headphones only. http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/silentpianos/ http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards...
        rifung 11y ago
        I actually had one of these and can tell you that unfortunately the technology just isn't there. The action is the same but the way it reacts and sounds isn't, and at least for classical music, learning the nuances of the sound (and pedal!) is the hardest part..
CalRobert 11y ago
I use ear plugs, but that's not ideal of course. I used to live in a 200 year old brick building on the 4th story in a dense, walkable area and surprisingly it wasn't too bad. Now I live in a second story apartment in a much lower density city and the traffic noise is far worse than the human noise I used to hear.
- WalterBright 11y ago
  Suburbia has the incessant sound of lawnmowers, leafblowers, and barking dogs.
  - JBlue42 11y ago
    As well as denser cities. In LA, it's daily. Each small patch of grass between sidewalk and street cut or weedwhacked and the blower comes out even if a broom would be quieter and only slightly less efficient.
  - CalRobert 11y ago
    Leafblowers are vile. I would take plenty of drunks walking by at 2 AM over a horde of leafblowers at 7 AM. I used to live in Santa Monica, and it was only upon leaving that I realized how utterly wonderful their leafblower ban was. Of course, the diesel pickups in the alley behind my apartment were less fun, but I guess you have to choose your battles.

drabiega 11y ago

It's interesting that you say that. In an earlier conversation on density and walk-able neighborhoods, I seem to recall a number of people from Europe saying that noise wasn't as much of a problem as in dense parts of the US because of different construction traditions. (Europe is a diverse place, of course, so it might just be down to regional differences.)

jensen123 11y ago
That could be. It's especially renovations in the same building where I live that has been the problem here. I'm guessing this is a bigger problem (more renovations!) in a large building, than a small one.
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  Regarding renovations: whenever someone takes a rotary hammer to concrete, it will be fairly noisy no matter how good the sound proofing is. That sound will travel in the entire structure even if the building is 400 feet wide.
ams6110 11y ago
Any apartment or house old enough to have plaster walls will be much more soundproof. That stuff is dense and heavy and it's usually at least an inch thick, more than sheetrock/drywall.
rtpg 11y ago
Europe is a big place, I think the construction norms can differ too. I was in some appartments in Nantes, France, and the windows could let you hear outside (so things like buses going by in the day). In my Tokyo apartment I hear police cars go by (actually, every Sunday I get the black cars from the fascists[0]). I think there's some better sound isolation in France rather than Tokyo (at least in smaller appartments), but Japan also knows that making too much noise is pretty rude. Usually you're not allowed to play instruments in your place unless you got explicit permission when signing the contract (usually implies that the unit has better isolation). And you try not to hit the walls too often. I think it's part "don't be a dick", and part "get used to it". It's likely possible to isolate better but it's likely expensive on smaller units (because of the space required). Though honestly, even when I was in Texas suburbs, there's still noise from traffic and neighbors. It was easier to get peace and quiet though. [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai

rifung 11y ago

Yes please. As someone who is the one making the noise and feels bad for neighbors, I really want better sound insulation. I am renting a house which is much larger than I need just because I practice piano and don't want to disturb my neighbors. If not for this I would rent a place closer to work.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
pilom 11y ago
They make sound insulating and deadening foam. Put the piano in a small internal room and line the room with acoustic foam: http://amzn.to/1o9CGjb http://amzn.to/1o9CGjb Living closer to work must be worth 2 of these for $160?
- theoh 11y ago
  An electronic piano with headphones may even be an acceptable alternative.
  - Decade 11y ago
    No. Just no.
    - CalRobert 11y ago
      There are full acoustic/electric hybrid pianos with mechanical actions that have the ability to be used with headphones only. http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/silentpianos/ http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards...
      - rifung 11y ago
        I actually had one of these and can tell you that unfortunately the technology just isn't there. The action is the same but the way it reacts and sounds isn't, and at least for classical music, learning the nuances of the sound (and pedal!) is the hardest part..

CalRobert 11y ago

I use ear plugs, but that's not ideal of course. I used to live in a 200 year old brick building on the 4th story in a dense, walkable area and surprisingly it wasn't too bad. Now I live in a second story apartment in a much lower density city and the traffic noise is far worse than the human noise I used to hear.

WalterBright 11y ago
Suburbia has the incessant sound of lawnmowers, leafblowers, and barking dogs.
- JBlue42 11y ago
  As well as denser cities. In LA, it's daily. Each small patch of grass between sidewalk and street cut or weedwhacked and the blower comes out even if a broom would be quieter and only slightly less efficient.
- CalRobert 11y ago
  Leafblowers are vile. I would take plenty of drunks walking by at 2 AM over a horde of leafblowers at 7 AM. I used to live in Santa Monica, and it was only upon leaving that I realized how utterly wonderful their leafblower ban was. Of course, the diesel pickups in the alley behind my apartment were less fun, but I guess you have to choose your battles.