5 ms·

Can we just come out and admit something ? Buses are terrible. They are terrible functionally, they are terrible aesthetically, and they are terrible logistic

by rsync 11y ago

Can we just come out and admit something ? Buses are terrible. They are terrible functionally, they are terrible aesthetically, and they are terrible logistically. In fact, I would go so far as to say that across a broad spectrum of preferences, you would be very hard pressed to find anything worse in the urban, built environment than some big, loud, lumbering, clumsy (and usually) sooty bus bungling about the place. I love good public transit. I love light rail. I love the subway. I will do anything not to ride a bus. I am reminded of that quote from steve jobs about the touchscreen phones and the stylus: "if you see a (bus), they blew it."

nulltype 11y ago
Well the reason light rail and subways are so good isn't because they're on rails, but because they get their own track. If you put a bus on its own street, suddenly they're not as bad anymore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
- rsync 11y ago
  I agree that BRT (which I have a lot of experience with)[1][2][3] does make things a bit better. However, the successful BRT I have seen is always in very specialized circumstances, while the proposals I have seen for BRT in (for instance) San Francisco have been so full of weird compromises and bizarre edge cases that I am not optimistic they will make anything better. [1] Hop/Skip/Jump buses in Boulder [2] 16th street mall shuttle in Denver [3] "VelociRFTA" BRT in Aspen/Basalt/Glenwood
  - nulltype 11y ago
    Did they change the Skip? I used to take that and it was just a normal bus in the normal street as far as I recall.
- mikeash 11y ago
  They're also good because of the commitment involved. You can build around a light rail or a subway stop, safe in the knowledge that it will still be there in ten or twenty years. You can't build around a bus route like that. Ironically, the high expense and lack of flexibility are features, not problems.
- SilasX 11y ago
  Yet SF still manages to mess that up. The Geary/O'Farrell corridor gets its own lane for the buses, but the "rapid" ones stop every three blocks.
Raphmedia 11y ago
I used the bus for 2 years. I tried very hard to stick with it. It was so bad that I went and purchased a car. The seats in bus are too small, the bus are too noisy (try riding one hour next to a very noisy engine and not get to work with a big headache), they get late, etc. Long distance bus are okay, but public transit bus are so bad it's not even funny. I would pay double the fare to have access to a bus that is comfortable to ride and is never late.
- Symbiote 11y ago
  You perhaps need to convince your public transport agency to pay more for the vehicle itself. Last time I was in the US, in every city I noticed the buses were rattly, smelly and ugly. Some were old, but not all. Hopefully they're also cheap, they at least appear to be assembled from all the left-over parts of other vehicles. Compare a Mercedes or Volvo bus -- much bigger windows, a cleaner, smoother engine, low floor (the bus "kneels" at stops if needed). If it's less than a year or two old or in a wealthy city it's probably hybrid, which means a smaller and even quieter engine. Probably the same people that design the cars have designed the bus. (And US school buses are a joke. This [1] is a modern vehicle?! I'd put it in a museum. Why are there steps? This normal bus [2] is a year older, but far safer on the most basic safety measure: the driver being able to see children around the front of the vehicle.) [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Propane_powered_blue_bird_vision.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Propane_powered_blue... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-deck_bus#/media/File:First_Hampshire_%26_Dorset_69398.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-deck_bus#/media/File:Fi...
  - douche 11y ago
    US school buses are built for different conditions than urban-only buses. A school bus has to be able to handle ice, snow, and poorly maintained dirt roads in a lot of areas. Hence why they look more like a WW2 deuce and a half Army truck.
    - kalleboo 11y ago
      We have plenty of ice and snow in Sweden... http://www.arriva.se/sites/default/files/styles/469x304/public/galleries/2.15_buss_compressed.jpg?itok=7JOSq2G4 http://www.arriva.se/sites/default/files/styles/469x304/publ...
masklinn 11y ago
Little of what you've said matches my experience, whether it's on intra-city buses or inter-city ones. Buses are functionally identical to rail (light or otherwise) with less structural and infrastructural requirements (roads, possibly catenary), buses look just fine, and buses are much more flexible and "denser" (in terms of stops density) than light rail or subway could ever be. Bus stops can be moved around, buses can be surged, buses can be rerouted, buses can temporarily replace light rail or subway if these have to stop, … You do you, but I certainly have no problem with buses in general, the only issue I have with them is that it's not as predictable as dedicated-way systems since they're sharing the environment with all kinds of unpredictable factors (the best way to improve buses is to remove the cars blocking them)
- welterde 11y ago
  The actual ride comfort however is very different between road vehicles and rail vehicles (with trams being somewhere in the middle). In road vehicles I am pretty much limited to listening to music while staring outside if I don't want to get motion sickness. While traveling in the subway or on the train I can read books, use my laptop, etc with no problems whatsoever. Thus I only take the bus for short trips or when the alternative takes much longer.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    That is more than fair, motion sickness is hell and you have my sympathy at least.
drabiega 11y ago
I've been on terrible buses and I've been on great buses. I'm not even talking about the local/long distance divide, although the long distance buses have usually been great. At the time I rode them, DC's Circulator buses were clean, nice looking, and fairly quick. For the rides I used them for frequently they were faster and cheaper than taking the Metro.
dang 11y ago
"Everybody hates buses and everybody loves trains." Someone said that on HN one time and it stuck in my head as pretty close to true.
takno 11y ago
This seems to be somewhat (although not universally) true of buses in the US, which often struggle to be on a par with buses in the UK 25 years ago. Here we tend to have more comfortable seating, cleaner interiors (and exteriors), less engine noise, rapidly decreasing particulate pollution and dammit they've just been designed to look nicer.
oska 11y ago
Try visiting Brisbane, Australia. Its fleet of busses are all air-conditioned and run on natural gas. There are dedicated bus-ways [1] and a bridge to the university that only busses, cyclists and pedestrians are allowed to use [2]. Brisbane is one of the most spread out cities in the world, but its bus network and smaller rail system make for a decent public transport system. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busways_in_Brisbane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busways_in_Brisbane [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Schonell_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Schonell_Bridge
Tepix 11y ago
I agree that most buses are too loud. I've recently seen some buses with hybrid drives, they have additional electric engines for acceleration which makes them a lot quieter.

by rsync 11y ago

nulltype 11y ago

Well the reason light rail and subways are so good isn't because they're on rails, but because they get their own track. If you put a bus on its own street, suddenly they're not as bad anymore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

rsync 11y ago
I agree that BRT (which I have a lot of experience with)[1][2][3] does make things a bit better. However, the successful BRT I have seen is always in very specialized circumstances, while the proposals I have seen for BRT in (for instance) San Francisco have been so full of weird compromises and bizarre edge cases that I am not optimistic they will make anything better. [1] Hop/Skip/Jump buses in Boulder [2] 16th street mall shuttle in Denver [3] "VelociRFTA" BRT in Aspen/Basalt/Glenwood
- nulltype 11y ago
  Did they change the Skip? I used to take that and it was just a normal bus in the normal street as far as I recall.
mikeash 11y ago
They're also good because of the commitment involved. You can build around a light rail or a subway stop, safe in the knowledge that it will still be there in ten or twenty years. You can't build around a bus route like that. Ironically, the high expense and lack of flexibility are features, not problems.
SilasX 11y ago
Yet SF still manages to mess that up. The Geary/O'Farrell corridor gets its own lane for the buses, but the "rapid" ones stop every three blocks.

Raphmedia 11y ago

I used the bus for 2 years. I tried very hard to stick with it. It was so bad that I went and purchased a car. The seats in bus are too small, the bus are too noisy (try riding one hour next to a very noisy engine and not get to work with a big headache), they get late, etc. Long distance bus are okay, but public transit bus are so bad it's not even funny. I would pay double the fare to have access to a bus that is comfortable to ride and is never late.

Symbiote 11y ago
You perhaps need to convince your public transport agency to pay more for the vehicle itself. Last time I was in the US, in every city I noticed the buses were rattly, smelly and ugly. Some were old, but not all. Hopefully they're also cheap, they at least appear to be assembled from all the left-over parts of other vehicles. Compare a Mercedes or Volvo bus -- much bigger windows, a cleaner, smoother engine, low floor (the bus "kneels" at stops if needed). If it's less than a year or two old or in a wealthy city it's probably hybrid, which means a smaller and even quieter engine. Probably the same people that design the cars have designed the bus. (And US school buses are a joke. This [1] is a modern vehicle?! I'd put it in a museum. Why are there steps? This normal bus [2] is a year older, but far safer on the most basic safety measure: the driver being able to see children around the front of the vehicle.) [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Propane_powered_blue_bird_vision.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Propane_powered_blue... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-deck_bus#/media/File:First_Hampshire_%26_Dorset_69398.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-deck_bus#/media/File:Fi...
- douche 11y ago
  US school buses are built for different conditions than urban-only buses. A school bus has to be able to handle ice, snow, and poorly maintained dirt roads in a lot of areas. Hence why they look more like a WW2 deuce and a half Army truck.
  - kalleboo 11y ago
    We have plenty of ice and snow in Sweden... http://www.arriva.se/sites/default/files/styles/469x304/public/galleries/2.15_buss_compressed.jpg?itok=7JOSq2G4 http://www.arriva.se/sites/default/files/styles/469x304/publ...

masklinn 11y ago

Little of what you've said matches my experience, whether it's on intra-city buses or inter-city ones. Buses are functionally identical to rail (light or otherwise) with less structural and infrastructural requirements (roads, possibly catenary), buses look just fine, and buses are much more flexible and "denser" (in terms of stops density) than light rail or subway could ever be. Bus stops can be moved around, buses can be surged, buses can be rerouted, buses can temporarily replace light rail or subway if these have to stop, … You do you, but I certainly have no problem with buses in general, the only issue I have with them is that it's not as predictable as dedicated-way systems since they're sharing the environment with all kinds of unpredictable factors (the best way to improve buses is to remove the cars blocking them)

welterde 11y ago
The actual ride comfort however is very different between road vehicles and rail vehicles (with trams being somewhere in the middle). In road vehicles I am pretty much limited to listening to music while staring outside if I don't want to get motion sickness. While traveling in the subway or on the train I can read books, use my laptop, etc with no problems whatsoever. Thus I only take the bus for short trips or when the alternative takes much longer.
- masklinn 11y ago
  That is more than fair, motion sickness is hell and you have my sympathy at least.

drabiega 11y ago

I've been on terrible buses and I've been on great buses. I'm not even talking about the local/long distance divide, although the long distance buses have usually been great. At the time I rode them, DC's Circulator buses were clean, nice looking, and fairly quick. For the rides I used them for frequently they were faster and cheaper than taking the Metro.

dang 11y ago

"Everybody hates buses and everybody loves trains." Someone said that on HN one time and it stuck in my head as pretty close to true.

takno 11y ago

This seems to be somewhat (although not universally) true of buses in the US, which often struggle to be on a par with buses in the UK 25 years ago. Here we tend to have more comfortable seating, cleaner interiors (and exteriors), less engine noise, rapidly decreasing particulate pollution and dammit they've just been designed to look nicer.

oska 11y ago

Try visiting Brisbane, Australia. Its fleet of busses are all air-conditioned and run on natural gas. There are dedicated bus-ways [1] and a bridge to the university that only busses, cyclists and pedestrians are allowed to use [2]. Brisbane is one of the most spread out cities in the world, but its bus network and smaller rail system make for a decent public transport system. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busways_in_Brisbane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busways_in_Brisbane [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Schonell_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Schonell_Bridge

Tepix 11y ago

I agree that most buses are too loud. I've recently seen some buses with hybrid drives, they have additional electric engines for acceleration which makes them a lot quieter.