5 ms·

It doesn't prevent them from creating hedges, just makes it harder.

iaw 11y ago
Could you elaborate? My first inclination is to strongly disagree having worked on hedges before, but if you know something I do not I'd like to hear about it. Edit: You can create hedges on unknown time-horizons with unknown returns but rather quickly the cost of maintaining the hedges should drastically outpace their value as hedges. Time volatility on the order of years is harder (read much more expensive) to deal with than revenue volatility with a known time-horizon. So, while you can create a theoretical hedge instrument, the application of such an instrument is untenable as a profitable hedge in practice. (from my personal experience, would still love to be proven wrong here)
- shostack 11y ago
  Would you mind giving an ELI5 explanation of how hedge funds currently handle exit value volatility (minus the unknown time-horizons aspect) for those of us who haven't worked on hedges before?
  - iaw 11y ago
    Lets assume no fundamental issues with the economy, e.g. we're only worried about companies competing with eachother not a financial crisis. The expectation of a startup is typically that it will disrupt an existing industry or fail to do so. If it disrupts an existing industry, existing market participants will lose marketshare. Knowing who the competitors are in a given space, and how they contribute to the overall market, allows the hedge fund to model what the long-term revenue streams of a startup could look like. More importantly, they model how much money competitors and contributors to the space will make or lose due to the market change. Having these expectations they can then acquire futures contracts (contracts that allow them to fix the price and date they pay or receive for a publicly traded security) opportunistically during normal market fluctuations. If the hedge is working perfectly they will make money back regardless of whether the company succeeds or fails. Trains vs. Buses vs. Cars with inputs of fuel is a classic hedge model example (although rather simplistic). Lately hedge funds (and other early investors) are building their hedges into the investment itself with liquidity preferences which are creating their own sets of problems. Basically, liquidity preferences can be thought of as a hedge on their investment but they lose a lot of hedge value when they don't know when the liquidity event will occur. Sorry if that isn't ELI5 enough, hedges are a pretty complex animal and it's hard not to jump down every rabbit hole detail.
    - wmfiv 11y ago
      In a completely theoretical way what you say is possible. But in practice does anyone actually do this? What's the time frame you'd be willing to stake your career on for a startup (event a fairly mature one) to be meaningfully impacting the overall profitability of it's astronomically larger competitors? And you'd be simultaneously betting against overall bull markets and that the incumbents won't adapt, whether in the market directly against the startup or in any of the other markets they're in. To my knowledge you can't even trade in stock futures with sufficiently distant expiration dates to do this.
      - iaw 11y ago
        "To my knowledge you can't even trade in stock futures with sufficiently distant expiration dates to do this." To put this as politely as possible, you are incorrect. When you have more than $1 billion under management there are numerous counter parties more than willing to design bespoke financial instruments to suit your needs. My first role in finance involved modeling the risk associated with the bespoke instruments that people were asking my tiny (<$1 billion) firm to create. If you watch 'The Big Short' 1/3rd of the movie is devoted the creation, acquisition, and distribution of a bespoke financial instrument traded upon layers of bespoke instruments (Credit Default Swaps, Credit Default Obligitions, rolled bond instruments, etc.) Remember when Christian Bale's character gets chewed out for losing so much money a month? It's because he's paying to maintain his bespoke put options on mortgage backed securities. "What's the time frame you'd be willing to stake your career on for a startup" I left the industry, I find it pretty disgusting to be quite honest. However you're missing the fact that these hedge funds don't invest in one startup, they invest in dozens in an effort to diversify their risk. Furthermore, if you think a fund manager is "staking their career" by making these bets you missed two important facts: * 2 and 20, they're taking home 2% under management even if they lose it all. * By the time someone is in the position to manage that many investments they are both able to retire and sell themselves into any position. There's as many, if not more, investment managers that lose money as make it. Their job is to quantify and tolerate risk, quite often that entails losing money on some investments. Anecdotally, when I first started in the industry we had a director who lost $30MM in the course of 2 weeks on an investment. We had hit a risk case that exceeded the 99th percentile on an investment strategy he had developed. A month later we had recouped the $30MM with an additional $60MM of profit. He took an educated risk and it could have made us take a loss for the year. Importantly, all of our other investments performed wholly within expectations during that time frame. So, while we were losing money hand over fist during those weeks it was never an existential risk to the company.
  - finance-geek 11y ago
    Easy -- for an "imperfect hedge", find a comparable company and sell an opposite instrument. If you are holding illiquid stock in VenMo for example, buy puts on either a the NASDAQ or PAYPAL. As the value of one goes up, the value of the other generally goes down, you are generally even. For a "perfect hedge", find a counterparty willing to bet on the price of what you own (perhaps they have an opposite exposure) and have them take the opposite side of a forward or swap for your illiquid stock.
    - mikeyouse 11y ago
      Good explanation, but maybe use Dwolla instead of Venmo (Paypal bought Braintree a few years ago, which had bought Venmo prior to that -- So Venmo is now a subsidiary of Paypal).
- discodave 11y ago
  You seem to have more experience hedging in the real world than me but I'll bite anyway... "So, while you can create a theoretical hedge instrument, the application of such an instrument is untenable as a profitable hedge in practice" There is an infinite amount of hedges that can be created with synthetic financial instruments. Some instruments haven't been invented yet and even if they have been invented you have to convince somebody else to take the other side of any trade. Credit default swaps, options and just about any other instrument were new, unproven and potentially secret at some point. Right now there could be somebody who has figured out a way to do some kind of time horizon hedging and is going to make bank when some startups do/don't IPO. I actually think it's quite likely. Edit: Having read some of your other comments on here I would rephrase my answer as this: why would a time-horizon hedging strategy be any less successful than any other hedging strategy?
  - iaw 11y ago
    You definitely have a valid point. The framework I'm operating from includes the time-value component of the fund. If a fund has a target rate of return of 10% per annum, each additional year they wait for a liquidity event requires an additional 11% (1 / 0.9) in returns in order to hit their target. So a valuation drop of 20% is comparable to ~2 years delay in liquidity. My strong suspicion is that the price volatility is small relative to the time volatility in these startups. There's a lot more knowledge around addressing the pricing volatility issues than the liquidity issues (an unexpected liquidity issue in the short-term markets is what caused both Bear Sterns and Lehman Bros to fail). In the end I believe that delayed liquidity events, in the market we are entering, are going to be strongly correlated with reduced IPO value. To directly answer you question : the challenges of hedging for the time horizon of liquidity events will also include price volatility issues as well. So essentially if you're worrying about liquidity you still have to worry about price, where in saner times there are vehicles where you only have to worry about price. More hedges means more carry cost and less-profits. So what I meant by the "untenable" is that I don't expect the cost-value to be there in those circumstances. Definitely possible that I'm wrong here, I just think the odds are against anyone dealing with those types of problems.
    - 11y ago

iaw 11y ago

Could you elaborate? My first inclination is to strongly disagree having worked on hedges before, but if you know something I do not I'd like to hear about it. Edit: You can create hedges on unknown time-horizons with unknown returns but rather quickly the cost of maintaining the hedges should drastically outpace their value as hedges. Time volatility on the order of years is harder (read much more expensive) to deal with than revenue volatility with a known time-horizon. So, while you can create a theoretical hedge instrument, the application of such an instrument is untenable as a profitable hedge in practice. (from my personal experience, would still love to be proven wrong here)

shostack 11y ago
Would you mind giving an ELI5 explanation of how hedge funds currently handle exit value volatility (minus the unknown time-horizons aspect) for those of us who haven't worked on hedges before?
- iaw 11y ago
  Lets assume no fundamental issues with the economy, e.g. we're only worried about companies competing with eachother not a financial crisis. The expectation of a startup is typically that it will disrupt an existing industry or fail to do so. If it disrupts an existing industry, existing market participants will lose marketshare. Knowing who the competitors are in a given space, and how they contribute to the overall market, allows the hedge fund to model what the long-term revenue streams of a startup could look like. More importantly, they model how much money competitors and contributors to the space will make or lose due to the market change. Having these expectations they can then acquire futures contracts (contracts that allow them to fix the price and date they pay or receive for a publicly traded security) opportunistically during normal market fluctuations. If the hedge is working perfectly they will make money back regardless of whether the company succeeds or fails. Trains vs. Buses vs. Cars with inputs of fuel is a classic hedge model example (although rather simplistic). Lately hedge funds (and other early investors) are building their hedges into the investment itself with liquidity preferences which are creating their own sets of problems. Basically, liquidity preferences can be thought of as a hedge on their investment but they lose a lot of hedge value when they don't know when the liquidity event will occur. Sorry if that isn't ELI5 enough, hedges are a pretty complex animal and it's hard not to jump down every rabbit hole detail.
  - wmfiv 11y ago
    In a completely theoretical way what you say is possible. But in practice does anyone actually do this? What's the time frame you'd be willing to stake your career on for a startup (event a fairly mature one) to be meaningfully impacting the overall profitability of it's astronomically larger competitors? And you'd be simultaneously betting against overall bull markets and that the incumbents won't adapt, whether in the market directly against the startup or in any of the other markets they're in. To my knowledge you can't even trade in stock futures with sufficiently distant expiration dates to do this.
    - iaw 11y ago
      "To my knowledge you can't even trade in stock futures with sufficiently distant expiration dates to do this." To put this as politely as possible, you are incorrect. When you have more than $1 billion under management there are numerous counter parties more than willing to design bespoke financial instruments to suit your needs. My first role in finance involved modeling the risk associated with the bespoke instruments that people were asking my tiny (<$1 billion) firm to create. If you watch 'The Big Short' 1/3rd of the movie is devoted the creation, acquisition, and distribution of a bespoke financial instrument traded upon layers of bespoke instruments (Credit Default Swaps, Credit Default Obligitions, rolled bond instruments, etc.) Remember when Christian Bale's character gets chewed out for losing so much money a month? It's because he's paying to maintain his bespoke put options on mortgage backed securities. "What's the time frame you'd be willing to stake your career on for a startup" I left the industry, I find it pretty disgusting to be quite honest. However you're missing the fact that these hedge funds don't invest in one startup, they invest in dozens in an effort to diversify their risk. Furthermore, if you think a fund manager is "staking their career" by making these bets you missed two important facts: * 2 and 20, they're taking home 2% under management even if they lose it all. * By the time someone is in the position to manage that many investments they are both able to retire and sell themselves into any position. There's as many, if not more, investment managers that lose money as make it. Their job is to quantify and tolerate risk, quite often that entails losing money on some investments. Anecdotally, when I first started in the industry we had a director who lost $30MM in the course of 2 weeks on an investment. We had hit a risk case that exceeded the 99th percentile on an investment strategy he had developed. A month later we had recouped the $30MM with an additional $60MM of profit. He took an educated risk and it could have made us take a loss for the year. Importantly, all of our other investments performed wholly within expectations during that time frame. So, while we were losing money hand over fist during those weeks it was never an existential risk to the company.
- finance-geek 11y ago
  Easy -- for an "imperfect hedge", find a comparable company and sell an opposite instrument. If you are holding illiquid stock in VenMo for example, buy puts on either a the NASDAQ or PAYPAL. As the value of one goes up, the value of the other generally goes down, you are generally even. For a "perfect hedge", find a counterparty willing to bet on the price of what you own (perhaps they have an opposite exposure) and have them take the opposite side of a forward or swap for your illiquid stock.
  - mikeyouse 11y ago
    Good explanation, but maybe use Dwolla instead of Venmo (Paypal bought Braintree a few years ago, which had bought Venmo prior to that -- So Venmo is now a subsidiary of Paypal).
discodave 11y ago
You seem to have more experience hedging in the real world than me but I'll bite anyway... "So, while you can create a theoretical hedge instrument, the application of such an instrument is untenable as a profitable hedge in practice" There is an infinite amount of hedges that can be created with synthetic financial instruments. Some instruments haven't been invented yet and even if they have been invented you have to convince somebody else to take the other side of any trade. Credit default swaps, options and just about any other instrument were new, unproven and potentially secret at some point. Right now there could be somebody who has figured out a way to do some kind of time horizon hedging and is going to make bank when some startups do/don't IPO. I actually think it's quite likely. Edit: Having read some of your other comments on here I would rephrase my answer as this: why would a time-horizon hedging strategy be any less successful than any other hedging strategy?
- iaw 11y ago
  You definitely have a valid point. The framework I'm operating from includes the time-value component of the fund. If a fund has a target rate of return of 10% per annum, each additional year they wait for a liquidity event requires an additional 11% (1 / 0.9) in returns in order to hit their target. So a valuation drop of 20% is comparable to ~2 years delay in liquidity. My strong suspicion is that the price volatility is small relative to the time volatility in these startups. There's a lot more knowledge around addressing the pricing volatility issues than the liquidity issues (an unexpected liquidity issue in the short-term markets is what caused both Bear Sterns and Lehman Bros to fail). In the end I believe that delayed liquidity events, in the market we are entering, are going to be strongly correlated with reduced IPO value. To directly answer you question : the challenges of hedging for the time horizon of liquidity events will also include price volatility issues as well. So essentially if you're worrying about liquidity you still have to worry about price, where in saner times there are vehicles where you only have to worry about price. More hedges means more carry cost and less-profits. So what I meant by the "untenable" is that I don't expect the cost-value to be there in those circumstances. Definitely possible that I'm wrong here, I just think the odds are against anyone dealing with those types of problems.
  - 11y ago