4 ms·

Unions are terrible. Awful, in fact. At least on average. But not having unions seems even worse, so until we invent something better...

hackuser 11y ago
That sounds like what Churchill(?) said about democracy: A terrible form of government, but better than all the alternatives. It's the nature of human institutions - name one that's better. The way I think of it is that other people with power are act in corrupt, self-interested ways, why should working people be denied power for doing those things? They shouldn't be held to a higher standard. Unions are about power; it gives the working class a seat at the table with all the other power-hungry corrupt people who run our society. Note that since unions started weakening in the 1980s, wages have stagnated for those people who have lost power and they have increased dramatically for the wealthy people who have retained it. That's simplistic, but I don't think those outcomes are unrelated. I'd like an end to corruption, as well as universal peace and love; but I'm not going to wait for it to happen before I support unions.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  Corruption comes from incentives, and it's all about (counter)balancing incentives.
themartorana 11y ago
Not sure they are that great anymore... For sure they played a huuuuge important role in the formation of basic workers' rights. That can't be discounted. But in practice in 2016, I have yet to see where they actually shine, and I'm a bleeding heart liberal with teachers dotted all over my family. That said the one place I can still see some importance is for police - mostly in available representation in legal matters.
- InclinedPlane 11y ago
  Shine? I already said they were terrible, why would you expect them to shine? But there are definitely areas where they are missing. Consider the tech industry, for example. There are tons of workers in the lower tiers who just get chewed up and used by the industry. They work 50,60,80 hour weeks on salary without getting significant equity or even job security. Or they work hourly at far below what they're worth. Or they work through contract agencies and get mistreated by everyone (with the contract agencies taking 1/3 or 1/2 of their pay with almost nothing in return except access to working at a big company). And it's even worse in game dev. Or, not far off, look at the visual effects industry. Hollywood is a rough neighborhood business wise, and they've had tons of practice sharpening their cutthroat skills. Everyone in that business who earns a living either gets paid cash up front plus a percentage of the gross (the "stars" and powerful producers and directors etc.) or is unionized and gets paid a standard, decent, wage. With the exception of newcomers like the VFX industry, who didn't have the clout to demand cash up front and tried to play around with competitive bidding, with the result being a ton of them going bankrupt and lots of VFX employees getting screwed over. Unions wouldn't solve all the problems there but they would swing the pendulum in the right direction at the very least. It's the same with minimum wage laws. Also horribly flawed and broken, but when other more effective mechanisms don't exist currently you have to use what's available.
threatofrain 11y ago
I would add to this by saying that I don't think the function of unions is to optimize the economy. It's to counterbalance the dominion of corporations over citizens.

hackuser 11y ago

That sounds like what Churchill(?) said about democracy: A terrible form of government, but better than all the alternatives. It's the nature of human institutions - name one that's better. The way I think of it is that other people with power are act in corrupt, self-interested ways, why should working people be denied power for doing those things? They shouldn't be held to a higher standard. Unions are about power; it gives the working class a seat at the table with all the other power-hungry corrupt people who run our society. Note that since unions started weakening in the 1980s, wages have stagnated for those people who have lost power and they have increased dramatically for the wealthy people who have retained it. That's simplistic, but I don't think those outcomes are unrelated. I'd like an end to corruption, as well as universal peace and love; but I'm not going to wait for it to happen before I support unions.

mahyarm 11y ago
Corruption comes from incentives, and it's all about (counter)balancing incentives.

themartorana 11y ago

Not sure they are that great anymore... For sure they played a huuuuge important role in the formation of basic workers' rights. That can't be discounted. But in practice in 2016, I have yet to see where they actually shine, and I'm a bleeding heart liberal with teachers dotted all over my family. That said the one place I can still see some importance is for police - mostly in available representation in legal matters.

InclinedPlane 11y ago
Shine? I already said they were terrible, why would you expect them to shine? But there are definitely areas where they are missing. Consider the tech industry, for example. There are tons of workers in the lower tiers who just get chewed up and used by the industry. They work 50,60,80 hour weeks on salary without getting significant equity or even job security. Or they work hourly at far below what they're worth. Or they work through contract agencies and get mistreated by everyone (with the contract agencies taking 1/3 or 1/2 of their pay with almost nothing in return except access to working at a big company). And it's even worse in game dev. Or, not far off, look at the visual effects industry. Hollywood is a rough neighborhood business wise, and they've had tons of practice sharpening their cutthroat skills. Everyone in that business who earns a living either gets paid cash up front plus a percentage of the gross (the "stars" and powerful producers and directors etc.) or is unionized and gets paid a standard, decent, wage. With the exception of newcomers like the VFX industry, who didn't have the clout to demand cash up front and tried to play around with competitive bidding, with the result being a ton of them going bankrupt and lots of VFX employees getting screwed over. Unions wouldn't solve all the problems there but they would swing the pendulum in the right direction at the very least. It's the same with minimum wage laws. Also horribly flawed and broken, but when other more effective mechanisms don't exist currently you have to use what's available.

threatofrain 11y ago

I would add to this by saying that I don't think the function of unions is to optimize the economy. It's to counterbalance the dominion of corporations over citizens.