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This is ludicrous. > "hahah, you’re actually being a dick. so, fuck you. don’t e-mail me back." This is the developer the community gathered behind? Not only

by vulpino 11y ago

This is ludicrous. > "hahah, you’re actually being a dick. so, fuck you. don’t e-mail me back." This is the developer the community gathered behind? Not only is that incredibly unprofessional (to say the least), kik is a registered trademark. And - I've said this before, but I will repeat it here - unpublishing all your modules from npm ("liberating") is such a selfish and childish move, especially when so many people depend on your modules. That's the behavior of a preschooler. That's not "power to the people," as Azer put it in his original post. That's just an attempt to show that Azer has the power to bring chaos to the ecosystem. People are so quick to jump to the defense of someone who is having their "freedom" suppressed, without knowledge of the situation.

howeyc 11y ago
Since when do people have to be 100% professional in all their dealings 24 hours everyday in order to be in the right?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- outworlder 11y ago
  Maybe not professional at all times, but what about polite?
  - brazzledazzle 11y ago
    I think threatening someone with lawyers is exactly what it sounds like: a threat. This is not polite behavior even if the text was written in a polite manner.
- klodolph 11y ago
  Maybe we could shoot for at least 25% professional?
awesomerobot 11y ago
Where does it end? An individual working on an open-sourced project has to get strong-armed out of a 3-letter name because a corporation paid for it? Isn't that concept a little ludicrous in its own right? Could this eventually end up a constant corporate whack-a-mole until project names ultimately degrade to random strings of consonants? If it's professional to contact someone and say "Hey buddy, we're bigger than you — change or we'll ruin you" then maybe "fuck you" is necessary.
- vulpino 11y ago
  That's a very slippery slope. Kik is an app and company that has been going on for years. It existed long before Azer's "kik" and, even if Azer does not know what it is, most people know "Kik" as the phone app and not the bootstrapping tool. To extrapolate this incident to "companies will start snatching up three letter names, and nothing will ever be able to use a three letter name" is ridiculous.
  - awesomerobot 11y ago
    "Most" people don't know of either. Kik is a messaging app, kik is a node module. Was someone going to call up the app store and install a node module? Was someone potentially going to install a messaging app into their node project? I think there are a lot of slippery slopes here.
    - vlribeiro 11y ago
      Well, if Kik - the company - really intends to release a node module that would be enough to confuse some people.
      - jhall1468 11y ago
        That's the same absolutely absurd argument that npm made. Who actually installs a module without actually seeing what it does first?
  - scotty79 11y ago
metaphorm 11y ago
suppose you were in Azer's situation, where a corporation has threatened legal action against you, and then did an end-run around you and used their influence to have the maintainers of your software distribution platform act against you unilaterally. would you feel like you had been treated justly? what would your response be?
- vulpino 11y ago
  Would I feel like I had been treated justly? Of course not. I would be angry. But in a situation like that, I can't blame npm because their hand was forced and I can't blame Kik for defending their trademark. Especially if they're planning on making a "kik" package that has something to do with, you know, their kik. I'd like to think I'd be professional enough to change the name of the package once I was prompted by kik, reupload, and be done with it. I'd be miffed, but it's a piece of software. It won't ruin me to rebrand it. It'll take an afternoon, at most. Cursing at people and calling people names, I'd like to think that we're above that as human beings, no matter how upset we are. That's something that teenagers in League of Legends do. That's not what a professional software engineer does.
  - metaphorm 11y ago
    > But in a situation like that, I can't blame npm because their hand was forced was it really though? can you show me where NPM had any kind of obligation to unilaterally take one side in this dispute?
    - vulpino 11y ago
      They were not "forced" by court order or any other legal means, but they were "forced" because I can imagine going to court over the entire ordeal would have been incredibly draining on their finances and manpower and ultimately pointless. I'm willing to bet that whatever fallout this results in for npm (even as big as this has become) is ten times better than whatever would have happened if they'd decided to fight Kik over it. They probably just wouldn't exist anymore as a company.
jsprogrammer 11y ago
"kik" is not actually a Trademark of KIK Interactive. They do have "KIK" trademarked[0], but it is only claimed for: >Computer software for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to exchange, share and create text with other users; computer software for electronic messaging services; computer software for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to exchange and share digital photos; computer software for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to download audio, video, digital photos and programs; electronic payment systems, namely, a computer application software used for processing electronic payments to and from others; computer software for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to create video and digital photos to share with other users; computer software for use with mobile phones to launch other applications and connect to other software services. >Electronic payment services >Electronic messaging services; wireless digital messaging services; telecommunications services, namely, electronic transmission of text messages; telecommunications services, namely, electronic transmission of digital photos; telecommunications services, namely, electronic transmission of audio, video, digital photos and computer programs; computer services, namely, providing interactive technology that allows users to create video and share audio and video with other users; telecommunications services, namely, providing computer software services for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to create video and digital photos to share with other users. As far as I can tell, kik [1] does not provide goods or services even remotely related to the KIK trademark. [0] http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4807:3857xn.2.1 http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4807:385... [1] https://github.com/azer/kik https://github.com/azer/kik
- vulpino 11y ago
  And it's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that npm would have won in a court of law. But the legal expenses were probably simply not an option, and I don't blame them for that.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    I don't see how NPM has any legal expenses if they only respond to valid court orders? If KIK believes kik being on npm is an infringement on their Trademark, let them prove it in a court of law. I don't see why NPM needs to be involved in this dispute at all.
xlm1717 11y ago
I won't defend either Azer or Kik. This whole episode just has me shaking my head. Why do people need to include a module for 10 lines of code that do something basic? Azer's actions brought chaos to the ecosystem because people started depending on the ecosystem to think for them. It wasn't something huge like Express or Mongoose that broke the internet, it was a stupid string padding function.
technion 11y ago
I'm happy to make an issue of professionalism in a professional environment. I spend my day in suits around businesses that will openly tell you they won't work with you because your tie looked cheap. There are businesses involved here, and people in business roles making, imo, unprofessional threats. When you work all day, and then come home to provide unpaid support for a project, things are different. You're sitting in front on a television in shorts, in the least professional environment imaginable, and you're helping people who have issues with your code, because that's what it means to give to the community. Then someone comes out swinging with a list of demands, regarding what you do in your own time. What is the return threat? "He wasn't professional so I'll stop making unpaid use of his products"?

by vulpino 11y ago

howeyc 11y ago

Since when do people have to be 100% professional in all their dealings 24 hours everyday in order to be in the right?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
outworlder 11y ago
Maybe not professional at all times, but what about polite?
- brazzledazzle 11y ago
  I think threatening someone with lawyers is exactly what it sounds like: a threat. This is not polite behavior even if the text was written in a polite manner.
klodolph 11y ago
Maybe we could shoot for at least 25% professional?

awesomerobot 11y ago

Where does it end? An individual working on an open-sourced project has to get strong-armed out of a 3-letter name because a corporation paid for it? Isn't that concept a little ludicrous in its own right? Could this eventually end up a constant corporate whack-a-mole until project names ultimately degrade to random strings of consonants? If it's professional to contact someone and say "Hey buddy, we're bigger than you — change or we'll ruin you" then maybe "fuck you" is necessary.

vulpino 11y ago
That's a very slippery slope. Kik is an app and company that has been going on for years. It existed long before Azer's "kik" and, even if Azer does not know what it is, most people know "Kik" as the phone app and not the bootstrapping tool. To extrapolate this incident to "companies will start snatching up three letter names, and nothing will ever be able to use a three letter name" is ridiculous.
- awesomerobot 11y ago
  "Most" people don't know of either. Kik is a messaging app, kik is a node module. Was someone going to call up the app store and install a node module? Was someone potentially going to install a messaging app into their node project? I think there are a lot of slippery slopes here.
  - vlribeiro 11y ago
    Well, if Kik - the company - really intends to release a node module that would be enough to confuse some people.
    - jhall1468 11y ago
      That's the same absolutely absurd argument that npm made. Who actually installs a module without actually seeing what it does first?
- scotty79 11y ago

metaphorm 11y ago

suppose you were in Azer's situation, where a corporation has threatened legal action against you, and then did an end-run around you and used their influence to have the maintainers of your software distribution platform act against you unilaterally. would you feel like you had been treated justly? what would your response be?

vulpino 11y ago
Would I feel like I had been treated justly? Of course not. I would be angry. But in a situation like that, I can't blame npm because their hand was forced and I can't blame Kik for defending their trademark. Especially if they're planning on making a "kik" package that has something to do with, you know, their kik. I'd like to think I'd be professional enough to change the name of the package once I was prompted by kik, reupload, and be done with it. I'd be miffed, but it's a piece of software. It won't ruin me to rebrand it. It'll take an afternoon, at most. Cursing at people and calling people names, I'd like to think that we're above that as human beings, no matter how upset we are. That's something that teenagers in League of Legends do. That's not what a professional software engineer does.
- metaphorm 11y ago
  > But in a situation like that, I can't blame npm because their hand was forced was it really though? can you show me where NPM had any kind of obligation to unilaterally take one side in this dispute?
  - vulpino 11y ago
    They were not "forced" by court order or any other legal means, but they were "forced" because I can imagine going to court over the entire ordeal would have been incredibly draining on their finances and manpower and ultimately pointless. I'm willing to bet that whatever fallout this results in for npm (even as big as this has become) is ten times better than whatever would have happened if they'd decided to fight Kik over it. They probably just wouldn't exist anymore as a company.

jsprogrammer 11y ago

"kik" is not actually a Trademark of KIK Interactive. They do have "KIK" trademarked[0], but it is only claimed for: >Computer software for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to exchange, share and create text with other users; computer software for electronic messaging services; computer software for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to exchange and share digital photos; computer software for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to download audio, video, digital photos and programs; electronic payment systems, namely, a computer application software used for processing electronic payments to and from others; computer software for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to create video and digital photos to share with other users; computer software for use with mobile phones to launch other applications and connect to other software services. >Electronic payment services >Electronic messaging services; wireless digital messaging services; telecommunications services, namely, electronic transmission of text messages; telecommunications services, namely, electronic transmission of digital photos; telecommunications services, namely, electronic transmission of audio, video, digital photos and computer programs; computer services, namely, providing interactive technology that allows users to create video and share audio and video with other users; telecommunications services, namely, providing computer software services for use with mobile phones and portable computing devices to create video and digital photos to share with other users. As far as I can tell, kik [1] does not provide goods or services even remotely related to the KIK trademark. [0] http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4807:3857xn.2.1 http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4807:385... [1] https://github.com/azer/kik https://github.com/azer/kik

vulpino 11y ago
And it's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that npm would have won in a court of law. But the legal expenses were probably simply not an option, and I don't blame them for that.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  I don't see how NPM has any legal expenses if they only respond to valid court orders? If KIK believes kik being on npm is an infringement on their Trademark, let them prove it in a court of law. I don't see why NPM needs to be involved in this dispute at all.

xlm1717 11y ago

I won't defend either Azer or Kik. This whole episode just has me shaking my head. Why do people need to include a module for 10 lines of code that do something basic? Azer's actions brought chaos to the ecosystem because people started depending on the ecosystem to think for them. It wasn't something huge like Express or Mongoose that broke the internet, it was a stupid string padding function.

technion 11y ago

I'm happy to make an issue of professionalism in a professional environment. I spend my day in suits around businesses that will openly tell you they won't work with you because your tie looked cheap. There are businesses involved here, and people in business roles making, imo, unprofessional threats. When you work all day, and then come home to provide unpaid support for a project, things are different. You're sitting in front on a television in shorts, in the least professional environment imaginable, and you're helping people who have issues with your code, because that's what it means to give to the community. Then someone comes out swinging with a list of demands, regarding what you do in your own time. What is the return threat? "He wasn't professional so I'll stop making unpaid use of his products"?