4 ms·

Maybe it's consulting outside the U.S. (guy was a Senior Associate at Bain for 1 year), but the consulting intro doesn't ring true. Both personal experience and

by basseq 11y ago

Maybe it's consulting outside the U.S. (guy was a Senior Associate at Bain for 1 year), but the consulting intro doesn't ring true. Both personal experience and an extensive network into MBB: I don't know anyone at that (junior) level who a) is flying trans-Atlantic on a weekly basis (to the U.S. no less), b) doesn't know where they're going until last minute, and c) changes projects every week. It doesn't happen. This isn't House of Lies. Guy appears to be a professional blogger now, so this is very much a grain-of-salt perspective.

exelius 11y ago
He's not necessarily lying - I have several MBB friends (engagement manager level) who have been flying trans-Atlantic nearly weekly from the US for the better part of the last 3 years. Hell, I still fly coast to coast on a regular basis myself. MBB-level consulting has changed a lot in the last few years. Clients are no longer willing to pay their rates for full projects, so a lot of their projects are now 2-3 week due diligence projects to validate the output that some internal team or a Big 4 accounting firm's consulting division put together. One friend of mine has worked at McKinsey for 4 years and has yet to work on a project longer than 6 weeks the entire time (most of her projects are 2-4 weeks). Even then, it's basically just the "MBB tax" you have to pay to whatever consulting company your board of directors used to work at. These projects could probably be done remotely, but those firms calling card is to massively over-deliver every project they get in order to justify their rates. All of this leads to a situation where projects are shorter, less valuable, and happen with less lead time than they used to. The pipelines have been getting shallower every year - look at how MBB are all trying to branch out into operations consulting with mixed results. One thing to keep in mind is that while MBB tend to exude this aura of invincibility, they're actually struggling right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see some consolidation happen in this space soon.
- huac 11y ago
  I thought the point of having SF, LA, NYC offices was to cut down on travel time, to the benefit of both the consultants and the client.
  - PaulHoule 11y ago
    There is a high element of bullshit social control in situations like this. You could probably hire a few people in (say) Eastern Europe and set them up with great process, tooling, and telecon and beat the hell out of consulting groups that run their consultants ragged, but running them ragged is a mechanism of control. You are so committed to it you are not going to question any assumptions. It is like the way that if you want to succeed in certain professions you pretty much need to move -- it satisfies the ideological idea that "we are hiring the best people from all over the world" and it separates you from friends and family and once more makes it almost impossible you will question the unspoken assumptions your career is based on.
    - huac 11y ago
      Yeah, I guess my perspective is different since I'm younger, and I'm drawing upon what my friends do/did as MBB interns (or bulge bracket/boutique finance). One thing that stood out is that a good number of them this summer are paying absurd amounts for housing, usually less than a 5 minute walk to the office. But their logic isn't 'the less time I spend commuting the more time I can have to myself,' it's 'the less time I spend commuting the more likely I will be the first to respond when an MD needs me.'
    - exelius 11y ago
      > but running them ragged is a mechanism of control. This is actually wrong. I used to think that, but again, the world has changed. Running your team ragged is purely a dog and pony show to win follow-up work. When you go into a client you don't know at all, and you do 6 weeks of work and develop a business strategy... the only way that works is if you walked in with a strategy. Which you always do. You then proceed to run your team ragged over the next 6 weeks to produce mountains of work and show the executive team at the client "Hey, look at our guys and how hard they work!" The work itself is usually just 120 slides full of busy work with so many assumptions baked in it's all but meaningless, but you make a great first impression and cemented your company's brand perception at the executive level of that client. You can then sell much lower-quality follow-on work for years on the strength of that one 6 week project. In consulting (ESPECIALLY strategy consulting) politics, perception and packaging are far, far more important than the quality of the output. Therefore, running your people ragged isn't about control or producing quality output. It's about impressing the client by working your ass off, and establishing a brand perception that hopefully will extend down to the other types of work your company does (which may or may not be of very high quality). Anyway, I firmly believe that most strategy consulting work in 2016 is really just pipeline development for operations consulting. Important for sure, but not really what most strategy consultants signed up for.
- basseq 11y ago
  At the EM+ level, from the U.S., and "nearly weekly" (2, 4, 6 weeks)... I buy all of that. Maybe his "text message" story happened once, or is hyperbole, but it isn't the status quo (and wasn't in 2012 when he was at Bain). You're dead right, though, and I don't discount the level of burn-out and despondency he felt in that line of work.
AndyNemmity 11y ago
I am a principal technical consultant. I don't know where I'm flying until the last minute. I can change projects every week, and fly trans-atlantic regularly. It does happen, and it isn't House of Lies.
- basseq 11y ago
  You also sound more senior than this guy. I, too, know people with that kind of lifestyle, but they tend to be a) deep specialists and/or b) much more senior. Not saying it didn't happen to him, or it doesn't happen to anyone. But every week, trans-Atlantic, to the U.S., as an associate... I remain skeptical.

by basseq 11y ago

exelius 11y ago

He's not necessarily lying - I have several MBB friends (engagement manager level) who have been flying trans-Atlantic nearly weekly from the US for the better part of the last 3 years. Hell, I still fly coast to coast on a regular basis myself. MBB-level consulting has changed a lot in the last few years. Clients are no longer willing to pay their rates for full projects, so a lot of their projects are now 2-3 week due diligence projects to validate the output that some internal team or a Big 4 accounting firm's consulting division put together. One friend of mine has worked at McKinsey for 4 years and has yet to work on a project longer than 6 weeks the entire time (most of her projects are 2-4 weeks). Even then, it's basically just the "MBB tax" you have to pay to whatever consulting company your board of directors used to work at. These projects could probably be done remotely, but those firms calling card is to massively over-deliver every project they get in order to justify their rates. All of this leads to a situation where projects are shorter, less valuable, and happen with less lead time than they used to. The pipelines have been getting shallower every year - look at how MBB are all trying to branch out into operations consulting with mixed results. One thing to keep in mind is that while MBB tend to exude this aura of invincibility, they're actually struggling right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see some consolidation happen in this space soon.

huac 11y ago
I thought the point of having SF, LA, NYC offices was to cut down on travel time, to the benefit of both the consultants and the client.
- PaulHoule 11y ago
  There is a high element of bullshit social control in situations like this. You could probably hire a few people in (say) Eastern Europe and set them up with great process, tooling, and telecon and beat the hell out of consulting groups that run their consultants ragged, but running them ragged is a mechanism of control. You are so committed to it you are not going to question any assumptions. It is like the way that if you want to succeed in certain professions you pretty much need to move -- it satisfies the ideological idea that "we are hiring the best people from all over the world" and it separates you from friends and family and once more makes it almost impossible you will question the unspoken assumptions your career is based on.
  - huac 11y ago
    Yeah, I guess my perspective is different since I'm younger, and I'm drawing upon what my friends do/did as MBB interns (or bulge bracket/boutique finance). One thing that stood out is that a good number of them this summer are paying absurd amounts for housing, usually less than a 5 minute walk to the office. But their logic isn't 'the less time I spend commuting the more time I can have to myself,' it's 'the less time I spend commuting the more likely I will be the first to respond when an MD needs me.'
  - exelius 11y ago
    > but running them ragged is a mechanism of control. This is actually wrong. I used to think that, but again, the world has changed. Running your team ragged is purely a dog and pony show to win follow-up work. When you go into a client you don't know at all, and you do 6 weeks of work and develop a business strategy... the only way that works is if you walked in with a strategy. Which you always do. You then proceed to run your team ragged over the next 6 weeks to produce mountains of work and show the executive team at the client "Hey, look at our guys and how hard they work!" The work itself is usually just 120 slides full of busy work with so many assumptions baked in it's all but meaningless, but you make a great first impression and cemented your company's brand perception at the executive level of that client. You can then sell much lower-quality follow-on work for years on the strength of that one 6 week project. In consulting (ESPECIALLY strategy consulting) politics, perception and packaging are far, far more important than the quality of the output. Therefore, running your people ragged isn't about control or producing quality output. It's about impressing the client by working your ass off, and establishing a brand perception that hopefully will extend down to the other types of work your company does (which may or may not be of very high quality). Anyway, I firmly believe that most strategy consulting work in 2016 is really just pipeline development for operations consulting. Important for sure, but not really what most strategy consultants signed up for.
basseq 11y ago
At the EM+ level, from the U.S., and "nearly weekly" (2, 4, 6 weeks)... I buy all of that. Maybe his "text message" story happened once, or is hyperbole, but it isn't the status quo (and wasn't in 2012 when he was at Bain). You're dead right, though, and I don't discount the level of burn-out and despondency he felt in that line of work.

AndyNemmity 11y ago

I am a principal technical consultant. I don't know where I'm flying until the last minute. I can change projects every week, and fly trans-atlantic regularly. It does happen, and it isn't House of Lies.

basseq 11y ago
You also sound more senior than this guy. I, too, know people with that kind of lifestyle, but they tend to be a) deep specialists and/or b) much more senior. Not saying it didn't happen to him, or it doesn't happen to anyone. But every week, trans-Atlantic, to the U.S., as an associate... I remain skeptical.