7 ms·

Toward a Grand Unified Theory of n00bs

124 points by dangrover 17y ago

rwhitman 17y ago
The title belies the fact this article is actually a really excellent lesson on the psychology of user behavior
- waterlesscloud 17y ago
  Yes, the best thinking yet on the RWW "Facebook login" sort of thing.
donaq 17y ago
This is quite excellent. The first concretely constructive post about the facebook login meme.
- stcredzero 17y ago
  When I lived in Ohio, my best friend at the time was a regular weekly commentator on a local public radio station. She was pretty sharp in a lot of ways, but computers still confused her. She wrote a lot and used Microsoft Word a lot, but she was never ever clear on what the Hard Drive was in her computer. And why should she be? Her life was busy enough with her job, her hobbies, and her family. So long as her writing was there for her when she sat down to write again, that's really all she wanted and needed. Users shouldn't need to care what a Hard Drive is. Their lives are not necessarily enriched if they know about the structure of a URL. That's as much an arbitrary, throwaway bit of knowledge as knowing the exact sequence of menus/commands needed to turn on endnotes in Word 2003. Those who enable users or unburden their minds will make money. (In retrospect, I should've done things to make the thing visible. I should've taken the thing apart and showed her the hard drive, the RAM. Then my "File Cabinet/Desk" metaphor might've had something concrete for her to latch onto. As it was, she was smart enough to figure out all those Windows icons were just convenient fictions.)
  - tdoggette 17y ago
    >Their lives are not necessarily enriched if they know about the structure of a URL. That's as much an arbitrary, throwaway bit of knowledge as knowing the exact sequence of menus/commands needed to turn on endnotes in Word 2003. That's absurd. Knowing URL structure (or enough about it to figure out what site you're on) is something that is necessary to use the internet. Phishing scams are the obvious reason, but also for things like this where that little bit of knowledge make the difference between success and failure.
    - stcredzero 17y ago
      Not absurd at all. There are countless community colleges that have courses that cover both URL structure and such sequences of menus/commands in Word. But is it any kind of deep knowledge? Since so many people use both web browsers and Microsoft Word, such knowledge could even help you to get a job. But is it any kind of deep or essential knowledge? Does anyone care about the structure of addresses for VideoTex? Does anyone care about the layout of menus and screens in the old AOL client? How about setting up privacy settings in Friendster? Yes, a few people still care, but almost everyone will recognize that this is all really just trivia now. But once upon a time, this was really useful information. Yes, URL structure is currently necessary to use the internet as we know it today. But it's every bit as arbitrary as the width of the standard rail gauge. Math is deep knowledge. Physics or chemistry is deep knowledge. URL structure is trivia. A lot of people who don't pay attention to it are actually smart enough to recognize it as such. They have other things to think about.
      - jff 17y ago
        So because the technology may change at some point in the future, there's no reason to learn it now? Nobody should have bothered learning how to use a fountain pen, because they should have known ballpoints would be around eventually? If you want to use the Internet, you should at least know a little bit about how information is addressed. Would you consider it acceptable to spend a couple hours in the library every day but still not know what the Dewey Decimal System is? This facebook login thing is like you went to the library every day for the same book, but instead of learning its location in the shelf, you ask the librarian and blindly grab the book he points at--in this case, he pointed to the book next to yours. Hey, this book used to be about Tom Sawyer--why did they change it to be about a jumping frog?
aspiringhacker 17y ago
"I think I can speak for most of my generation in saying that computer classes in high schools, colleges, and community centers are universally worthless. Courses for young people are usually taught by out-of-touch adults with a much less advanced understanding of the things they're teaching than their students. The only kind of teacher likely to be more incompetent than a computer teacher is a gym teacher. But that's not the problem." Our computer classes were actually given by our gym teacher...
- rwhitman 17y ago
  When I was in middle school we had these awful typing classes. What I would do is copy paste lines of 0's and 1's to make a page of "binary code" then I'd print a few copies from a random printer in the room. The teacher would see it, think the printer was malfunctioning and turn it off. I'd do this throughout the class until every printer was switched off. Because printing the page of what we typed was part of the lesson once all the printers 'stopped working', the lesson was over and the only thing we could do was sit around and play Stunt Copter until the end of class.
  - wallflower 17y ago
    You are my hero. We hated typing class, particularly because they had these silly keyboard blockers that forced you to touch type.
  - swernli 17y ago
    In our typing class, the teacher would give us each a floppy that stored our progress, averages, and what typing tests we were working on. I got tired of doing the tests (I was practicing typing at home on my own), and I wanted to streamline the process. So I looked on the floppy, and found that while the file with your progress and average scores was stored in some kind of program specific encoding, the files that contained the typing tests chosen by the teacher for that day were text files. So before each test, I would quickly open the file in notepad and change the text to be just the letter "j" and nothing else. The program would start timing you when you typed the first letter and stop timing when you reached the last letter, so as soon as I hit "j" it would instantly register 120 words per minute, since that was the fastest it could measure. Needless to say, the teacher was curious as to why I started getting 120 wpm on every test, so when she asked me I figure I'd just tell her the truth, and explained how I editted the file. She thought it was funny and creative, and (after I demonstrated that I really was learning how to type anyway) just gave me an A in the class.
cookiecaper 17y ago
The thing is that most people don't even try. This is partially our fault; people are just expected to grab a computer and automatically understand things, and as a group software developers really should start things off with an introduction. However, in my experience, most people are not willing to learn about their computers if you give them the chance. They're entirely apathetic about the whole deal. They don't care about anything, they just want to get Facebook and Farmville and be done with it. From this perspective, the iPad is _too_ open, and should come with a pre-programmed list of allowed domains to prevent phishing or other scams.
- thwarted 17y ago
  What's interesting is that they're willing to take the time to figure out Facebook and Farmville, and they seem to relish the frustration they bring on themselves by not paying attention to the whole process, but rather just the end result. Just think how much time they'd save, time they could be playing Farmville, if they used things like bookmarks, or set their home page properly (to Facebook, perhaps), or any of the other features and tools that are actually designed to make their experience easier, faster, and more efficient.
  - stcredzero 17y ago
    The thing is, they're only interested in the end result. Or, let me put it this way: the "end result" is what most people want and will pay money for! Why should a Facebook user be interested in the structure of a URL? Why should someone who uses a word processor be interested in hard drives? Isn't that like expecting all drivers to know the mole-fraction of pentane in their summer fuel blend? Drivers shouldn't need to know a whole lot about their cars. A lot of drivers would rather not know. They just want to get where they are going. A lot of companies that realized this made their shareholders tons of money in the past several decades.
  - patio11 17y ago
    they're willing to take the time to figure out Facebook and Farmville I'm telling you: give your computers game mechanics to learn your app. Facebook should buy you a pig and give you a diploma if you figure out how to log into them without Google. It would solve the problem in a week. (Test first, obviously.) Heck, Facebook could make a "user education tithe" of virtual goodies a condition of being listed in their programs. Got 1M users and want more? Pony up goodies for us to expand the platform with. It is in your long-term best interests. It is in your short-term best interests, too, if your short-term future would be compromised by us turning your notifications off.
est 17y ago
There is another great piece of similar story in China: Hao123
rogermugs 17y ago
i was going to write some rant about how we're all n00bs at something... but then i read this. these people genuinely are idiots.
by 17y ago
Much as I'm in favour of people understanding the structure of URLs, the article is wrong suggest this is the best way to prevent bank phishing. The correct advice is to bookmark your bank login URL, if your bank is competent this should be an https address, and always reach your login page using this bookmark. Never click a link in an email to login to your bank, it requires a great deal of effort and skill to check an emailed URL is valid.
- patio11 17y ago
  And your bank makes it hard for you! Chase Bank sent me a (legitimate!) email this week saying "We've just intercepted a suspicious transaction and tried reaching you by phone but we couldn't. Please click here if you authorized it or click here if you didn't." And then the link threw up a security certificate error! If they hadn't had my name, four digits of my account number, and a number exactly matching the number Google had just emailed me to say "We tried charging you $523.25 for your AdWords account but it got denied by your bank" 2 hours earlier, I would have sworn it was the world's best phishing attempt.
  - by 17y ago
    Yes, they're terrible at URLs too. Here's another case of something similar to your problem back in 2006. http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/10/banks-dont-help-fight-phishing/ http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/10/banks-dont-hel...
  - byrneseyeview 17y ago
    It gets worse: http://www.pixelmonkey.org/2009/08/21/chase-insecure http://www.pixelmonkey.org/2009/08/21/chase-insecure Chase sent me this, too. If you visit the site in Chrome, it tells you it's a suspected phishing site.
    - jerf 17y ago
      You should submit that as a top-level HN story.
monkeygrinder 17y ago
We get traffic for 'Facebook down', 'Facebook login' and, my favourite, 'Google search'. "lalala, I'm going to Google and searching for Google search and then clicking on an unrelated link." This is a fantastic post, esp if you're like me - a geek that studied philosophy.
_delirium 17y ago
A section about the trouble hierarchical information layout causes, in an article posted on (and written about) the web, is interesting, since some of the early motivations for hypertext were precisely the feeling that hierarchical structures and navigation were unintuitive and limiting, and that instead links between relevant stuff should be the main abstraction. Ted Nelson in particular seems to see eliminating hierarchies in computation as sort of a holy war.
tom_ilsinszki 17y ago
Usability testing would solve a lot of problems. I don't know how many apps get tested with the help of real world users, but I think there is still room for improvement.
- chadgeidel 17y ago
  I agree, but I don't think that was the focus of this article. No amount of usability testing would have helped here. RWW and Facebook already look completely different - not the URL, the entire page! The same goes for any other application. The user doesn't have an appropriate "mental model" of how the computer works. What is an app developer to do at that point?
albertcardona 17y ago
"The first line of defense is to make sure that people who do have a clue can get help with their problems easily without having to contact you. If all your emails are from wackos with hopelessly dumb questions, that means you're doing things right!" I learned something: improve my documentation, videotutorials and all until that happens.
RyanMcGreal 17y ago
This whole business smacks of survivorship bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias What we aren't seeing is the number of Facebook users who either a) don't use Google to find Facebook every time they log in or b) do use Google but figured out right away that RRW is not Facebook.
- tdoggette 17y ago
  We're also not seeing all the people that hit the RWW page and gave up.
- Groxx 17y ago
  The problem with such epic n00bs, though, is that there are so many of them that the "survivors" alone can destabilize your business. Heck, without noobs, would we even have spam? Somebody is paying those people to make it worthwhile. The tiny fraction of the world that encourages spammers cost everyone else massive amounts of time and energy and money accounting for or fixing their errors.
- jerf 17y ago
  Well, then they wouldn't be n00bs then, would they? I don't see how it's survivorship "bias" when the entire topic of discussion is only those people who fit a certain classification. That's not bias, that's just the topic.
frederickcook 17y ago
I think the best part of this article is the discussion of the ability to learn new abstractions. When I decide I want to file a patent, I go and learn about the patent system. Same with the Unix command line, the bus system in a foreign country, or how to go to a gym for free when traveling (most will let 'prospective members' workout once free). My sister on the other hand probably hasn't learned a new abstraction since down-dog in yoga, and struggles with the fact that if she doesn't file a tax return, she faces huge fines. I still love her to death, and will endlessly redesign my website until it is intuitive for her.
stcredzero 17y ago
The real problem is that these courses often teach a specific operating system or a specific office suite in an extremely facile manner. They're glorified typing courses. That means when Microsoft changes the locations of buttons in Word, students' knowledge is obsolete. Even programming courses in high school (and many colleges) are tied to specific programming languages, not general concepts. A good course teaches a mix of theory and application, but most computer courses can't even handle application right. This bothers me a lot. Not only are lots of "computer literacy" courses teaching stuff that will one day be trivia, but lots of supposed Computer Science education is over involved with particular programming language trivia. Heck, a lot of hiring nowadays is over-involved with such trivia. Contrast this with stuff that kids do with eToys in Squeak. Kids using an "Object-paint" program to simultaneously explore vector algebra, programming, and robotics, without the words "vector" and "robots" even needing to be mentioned. Get the mechanics out of the way so our minds can get on with the essentials.
- lurkinggrue 17y ago
  In the 80s I learned more from pirating software on a Commodore 64 than I did in computer classes in school. I got the skill of figuring out a piece of software with no help or documentation. The computer equivalent of "teaching a man to fish" I suppose. Shame schools don't teach exploration and play with computers.
  - stcredzero 17y ago
    Yah, mon! Leaving a curious 11 year old alone with an Apple II and some manuals is worth a hundred "facile" computer courses. Shame schools don't teach exploration and play with computers. Squeak eToys were all about that!
    - C3MDigital 17y ago
      That's what happened to me when I was 11. My dad brought home an apple IIe and some manuals. I saved my allowance and bought a 300 baud zoom modem and 4 years later "The Authorities" came banging on the door at 3 a.m and confiscated my precious Apple and all my notes. Moral of the story: I'm now a professional member of the I.T. Industry
mlLK 17y ago
Does anyone else dismiss this phenomenon as just a generation misusing an interactive medium? I think the "noob" label is misleading given the scope of the problem.
Groxx 17y ago
Nice article, and I think it does a decent job explaining the point and the problems. I, personally, side with the education-solution, as excessive computer ignorance is a very real danger and much more applicable to most people than most things school attempts to teach. In all seriousness, this seems like the perfect place to use the StupidFilter (http://stupidfilter.org http://stupidfilter.org). Separate bugs and complaints as they did (bug-tracking system instead of emails), and run all complaints through the filter. I'd even recommend informing people that it'll be run through the filter; anyone who can read before they scream at you can test for themselves to make sure it passes. If they can't be understandable and can't read before yelling, they're not worth the time, because nothing you do will make all of them happy. As the article suggests, pick your battles.
troystribling 17y ago
His proposed curriculum sounds very similar to the one used by Fairmont High in Verner Vinge's Rainbows End http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End. Fairmont High was actually the current equivalent of a Trade School.
elblanco 17y ago
Thanks for this, I've printed it out and stuck it on our product manager's monitor.
GaggleofGirls 17y ago
People want tools to solve problems, really to address their pains in life. These can include being bored and wanting to have some fun (hence Farmville), keeping in contact with people, managing their money, doing heir work, etc. Most people are motivated enough to learn what they need to to address their pains and very little beyond that, partially because there is so much vying for our time and attention. I know computers, but I don't know cars yet I drive because it addresses many of my needs. I know mostly as much about a car as I need to. Learning more about it does not satisfy other needs of mine (I don't find them interesting, so they don't satisfy my curiosity needs). I would sound as stupid answering car questions as the NYC people on the street did answering Browser questions. So, do I need to learn more about cars or do computers need to work right for people who don't understand them?

124 points by dangrover 17y ago

rwhitman 17y ago

The title belies the fact this article is actually a really excellent lesson on the psychology of user behavior

waterlesscloud 17y ago
Yes, the best thinking yet on the RWW "Facebook login" sort of thing.

donaq 17y ago

This is quite excellent. The first concretely constructive post about the facebook login meme.

stcredzero 17y ago
When I lived in Ohio, my best friend at the time was a regular weekly commentator on a local public radio station. She was pretty sharp in a lot of ways, but computers still confused her. She wrote a lot and used Microsoft Word a lot, but she was never ever clear on what the Hard Drive was in her computer. And why should she be? Her life was busy enough with her job, her hobbies, and her family. So long as her writing was there for her when she sat down to write again, that's really all she wanted and needed. Users shouldn't need to care what a Hard Drive is. Their lives are not necessarily enriched if they know about the structure of a URL. That's as much an arbitrary, throwaway bit of knowledge as knowing the exact sequence of menus/commands needed to turn on endnotes in Word 2003. Those who enable users or unburden their minds will make money. (In retrospect, I should've done things to make the thing visible. I should've taken the thing apart and showed her the hard drive, the RAM. Then my "File Cabinet/Desk" metaphor might've had something concrete for her to latch onto. As it was, she was smart enough to figure out all those Windows icons were just convenient fictions.)
- tdoggette 17y ago
  >Their lives are not necessarily enriched if they know about the structure of a URL. That's as much an arbitrary, throwaway bit of knowledge as knowing the exact sequence of menus/commands needed to turn on endnotes in Word 2003. That's absurd. Knowing URL structure (or enough about it to figure out what site you're on) is something that is necessary to use the internet. Phishing scams are the obvious reason, but also for things like this where that little bit of knowledge make the difference between success and failure.
  - stcredzero 17y ago
    Not absurd at all. There are countless community colleges that have courses that cover both URL structure and such sequences of menus/commands in Word. But is it any kind of deep knowledge? Since so many people use both web browsers and Microsoft Word, such knowledge could even help you to get a job. But is it any kind of deep or essential knowledge? Does anyone care about the structure of addresses for VideoTex? Does anyone care about the layout of menus and screens in the old AOL client? How about setting up privacy settings in Friendster? Yes, a few people still care, but almost everyone will recognize that this is all really just trivia now. But once upon a time, this was really useful information. Yes, URL structure is currently necessary to use the internet as we know it today. But it's every bit as arbitrary as the width of the standard rail gauge. Math is deep knowledge. Physics or chemistry is deep knowledge. URL structure is trivia. A lot of people who don't pay attention to it are actually smart enough to recognize it as such. They have other things to think about.
    - jff 17y ago
      So because the technology may change at some point in the future, there's no reason to learn it now? Nobody should have bothered learning how to use a fountain pen, because they should have known ballpoints would be around eventually? If you want to use the Internet, you should at least know a little bit about how information is addressed. Would you consider it acceptable to spend a couple hours in the library every day but still not know what the Dewey Decimal System is? This facebook login thing is like you went to the library every day for the same book, but instead of learning its location in the shelf, you ask the librarian and blindly grab the book he points at--in this case, he pointed to the book next to yours. Hey, this book used to be about Tom Sawyer--why did they change it to be about a jumping frog?

aspiringhacker 17y ago

"I think I can speak for most of my generation in saying that computer classes in high schools, colleges, and community centers are universally worthless. Courses for young people are usually taught by out-of-touch adults with a much less advanced understanding of the things they're teaching than their students. The only kind of teacher likely to be more incompetent than a computer teacher is a gym teacher. But that's not the problem." Our computer classes were actually given by our gym teacher...

rwhitman 17y ago
When I was in middle school we had these awful typing classes. What I would do is copy paste lines of 0's and 1's to make a page of "binary code" then I'd print a few copies from a random printer in the room. The teacher would see it, think the printer was malfunctioning and turn it off. I'd do this throughout the class until every printer was switched off. Because printing the page of what we typed was part of the lesson once all the printers 'stopped working', the lesson was over and the only thing we could do was sit around and play Stunt Copter until the end of class.
- wallflower 17y ago
  You are my hero. We hated typing class, particularly because they had these silly keyboard blockers that forced you to touch type.
- swernli 17y ago
  In our typing class, the teacher would give us each a floppy that stored our progress, averages, and what typing tests we were working on. I got tired of doing the tests (I was practicing typing at home on my own), and I wanted to streamline the process. So I looked on the floppy, and found that while the file with your progress and average scores was stored in some kind of program specific encoding, the files that contained the typing tests chosen by the teacher for that day were text files. So before each test, I would quickly open the file in notepad and change the text to be just the letter "j" and nothing else. The program would start timing you when you typed the first letter and stop timing when you reached the last letter, so as soon as I hit "j" it would instantly register 120 words per minute, since that was the fastest it could measure. Needless to say, the teacher was curious as to why I started getting 120 wpm on every test, so when she asked me I figure I'd just tell her the truth, and explained how I editted the file. She thought it was funny and creative, and (after I demonstrated that I really was learning how to type anyway) just gave me an A in the class.

cookiecaper 17y ago

The thing is that most people don't even try. This is partially our fault; people are just expected to grab a computer and automatically understand things, and as a group software developers really should start things off with an introduction. However, in my experience, most people are not willing to learn about their computers if you give them the chance. They're entirely apathetic about the whole deal. They don't care about anything, they just want to get Facebook and Farmville and be done with it. From this perspective, the iPad is _too_ open, and should come with a pre-programmed list of allowed domains to prevent phishing or other scams.

thwarted 17y ago
What's interesting is that they're willing to take the time to figure out Facebook and Farmville, and they seem to relish the frustration they bring on themselves by not paying attention to the whole process, but rather just the end result. Just think how much time they'd save, time they could be playing Farmville, if they used things like bookmarks, or set their home page properly (to Facebook, perhaps), or any of the other features and tools that are actually designed to make their experience easier, faster, and more efficient.
- stcredzero 17y ago
  The thing is, they're only interested in the end result. Or, let me put it this way: the "end result" is what most people want and will pay money for! Why should a Facebook user be interested in the structure of a URL? Why should someone who uses a word processor be interested in hard drives? Isn't that like expecting all drivers to know the mole-fraction of pentane in their summer fuel blend? Drivers shouldn't need to know a whole lot about their cars. A lot of drivers would rather not know. They just want to get where they are going. A lot of companies that realized this made their shareholders tons of money in the past several decades.
- patio11 17y ago
  they're willing to take the time to figure out Facebook and Farmville I'm telling you: give your computers game mechanics to learn your app. Facebook should buy you a pig and give you a diploma if you figure out how to log into them without Google. It would solve the problem in a week. (Test first, obviously.) Heck, Facebook could make a "user education tithe" of virtual goodies a condition of being listed in their programs. Got 1M users and want more? Pony up goodies for us to expand the platform with. It is in your long-term best interests. It is in your short-term best interests, too, if your short-term future would be compromised by us turning your notifications off.

est 17y ago

There is another great piece of similar story in China: Hao123

rogermugs 17y ago

i was going to write some rant about how we're all n00bs at something... but then i read this. these people genuinely are idiots.

by 17y ago

Much as I'm in favour of people understanding the structure of URLs, the article is wrong suggest this is the best way to prevent bank phishing. The correct advice is to bookmark your bank login URL, if your bank is competent this should be an https address, and always reach your login page using this bookmark. Never click a link in an email to login to your bank, it requires a great deal of effort and skill to check an emailed URL is valid.

patio11 17y ago
And your bank makes it hard for you! Chase Bank sent me a (legitimate!) email this week saying "We've just intercepted a suspicious transaction and tried reaching you by phone but we couldn't. Please click here if you authorized it or click here if you didn't." And then the link threw up a security certificate error! If they hadn't had my name, four digits of my account number, and a number exactly matching the number Google had just emailed me to say "We tried charging you $523.25 for your AdWords account but it got denied by your bank" 2 hours earlier, I would have sworn it was the world's best phishing attempt.
- by 17y ago
  Yes, they're terrible at URLs too. Here's another case of something similar to your problem back in 2006. http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/10/banks-dont-help-fight-phishing/ http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/10/banks-dont-hel...
- byrneseyeview 17y ago
  It gets worse: http://www.pixelmonkey.org/2009/08/21/chase-insecure http://www.pixelmonkey.org/2009/08/21/chase-insecure Chase sent me this, too. If you visit the site in Chrome, it tells you it's a suspected phishing site.
  - jerf 17y ago
    You should submit that as a top-level HN story.

monkeygrinder 17y ago

We get traffic for 'Facebook down', 'Facebook login' and, my favourite, 'Google search'. "lalala, I'm going to Google and searching for Google search and then clicking on an unrelated link." This is a fantastic post, esp if you're like me - a geek that studied philosophy.

_delirium 17y ago

A section about the trouble hierarchical information layout causes, in an article posted on (and written about) the web, is interesting, since some of the early motivations for hypertext were precisely the feeling that hierarchical structures and navigation were unintuitive and limiting, and that instead links between relevant stuff should be the main abstraction. Ted Nelson in particular seems to see eliminating hierarchies in computation as sort of a holy war.

tom_ilsinszki 17y ago

Usability testing would solve a lot of problems. I don't know how many apps get tested with the help of real world users, but I think there is still room for improvement.

chadgeidel 17y ago
I agree, but I don't think that was the focus of this article. No amount of usability testing would have helped here. RWW and Facebook already look completely different - not the URL, the entire page! The same goes for any other application. The user doesn't have an appropriate "mental model" of how the computer works. What is an app developer to do at that point?

albertcardona 17y ago

"The first line of defense is to make sure that people who do have a clue can get help with their problems easily without having to contact you. If all your emails are from wackos with hopelessly dumb questions, that means you're doing things right!" I learned something: improve my documentation, videotutorials and all until that happens.

RyanMcGreal 17y ago

This whole business smacks of survivorship bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias What we aren't seeing is the number of Facebook users who either a) don't use Google to find Facebook every time they log in or b) do use Google but figured out right away that RRW is not Facebook.

tdoggette 17y ago
We're also not seeing all the people that hit the RWW page and gave up.
Groxx 17y ago
The problem with such epic n00bs, though, is that there are so many of them that the "survivors" alone can destabilize your business. Heck, without noobs, would we even have spam? Somebody is paying those people to make it worthwhile. The tiny fraction of the world that encourages spammers cost everyone else massive amounts of time and energy and money accounting for or fixing their errors.
jerf 17y ago
Well, then they wouldn't be n00bs then, would they? I don't see how it's survivorship "bias" when the entire topic of discussion is only those people who fit a certain classification. That's not bias, that's just the topic.

frederickcook 17y ago

I think the best part of this article is the discussion of the ability to learn new abstractions. When I decide I want to file a patent, I go and learn about the patent system. Same with the Unix command line, the bus system in a foreign country, or how to go to a gym for free when traveling (most will let 'prospective members' workout once free). My sister on the other hand probably hasn't learned a new abstraction since down-dog in yoga, and struggles with the fact that if she doesn't file a tax return, she faces huge fines. I still love her to death, and will endlessly redesign my website until it is intuitive for her.

stcredzero 17y ago

The real problem is that these courses often teach a specific operating system or a specific office suite in an extremely facile manner. They're glorified typing courses. That means when Microsoft changes the locations of buttons in Word, students' knowledge is obsolete. Even programming courses in high school (and many colleges) are tied to specific programming languages, not general concepts. A good course teaches a mix of theory and application, but most computer courses can't even handle application right. This bothers me a lot. Not only are lots of "computer literacy" courses teaching stuff that will one day be trivia, but lots of supposed Computer Science education is over involved with particular programming language trivia. Heck, a lot of hiring nowadays is over-involved with such trivia. Contrast this with stuff that kids do with eToys in Squeak. Kids using an "Object-paint" program to simultaneously explore vector algebra, programming, and robotics, without the words "vector" and "robots" even needing to be mentioned. Get the mechanics out of the way so our minds can get on with the essentials.

lurkinggrue 17y ago
In the 80s I learned more from pirating software on a Commodore 64 than I did in computer classes in school. I got the skill of figuring out a piece of software with no help or documentation. The computer equivalent of "teaching a man to fish" I suppose. Shame schools don't teach exploration and play with computers.
- stcredzero 17y ago
  Yah, mon! Leaving a curious 11 year old alone with an Apple II and some manuals is worth a hundred "facile" computer courses. Shame schools don't teach exploration and play with computers. Squeak eToys were all about that!
  - C3MDigital 17y ago
    That's what happened to me when I was 11. My dad brought home an apple IIe and some manuals. I saved my allowance and bought a 300 baud zoom modem and 4 years later "The Authorities" came banging on the door at 3 a.m and confiscated my precious Apple and all my notes. Moral of the story: I'm now a professional member of the I.T. Industry

mlLK 17y ago

Does anyone else dismiss this phenomenon as just a generation misusing an interactive medium? I think the "noob" label is misleading given the scope of the problem.

Groxx 17y ago

Nice article, and I think it does a decent job explaining the point and the problems. I, personally, side with the education-solution, as excessive computer ignorance is a very real danger and much more applicable to most people than most things school attempts to teach. In all seriousness, this seems like the perfect place to use the StupidFilter (http://stupidfilter.org http://stupidfilter.org). Separate bugs and complaints as they did (bug-tracking system instead of emails), and run all complaints through the filter. I'd even recommend informing people that it'll be run through the filter; anyone who can read before they scream at you can test for themselves to make sure it passes. If they can't be understandable and can't read before yelling, they're not worth the time, because nothing you do will make all of them happy. As the article suggests, pick your battles.

troystribling 17y ago

His proposed curriculum sounds very similar to the one used by Fairmont High in Verner Vinge's Rainbows End http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End. Fairmont High was actually the current equivalent of a Trade School.

elblanco 17y ago

Thanks for this, I've printed it out and stuck it on our product manager's monitor.

GaggleofGirls 17y ago

People want tools to solve problems, really to address their pains in life. These can include being bored and wanting to have some fun (hence Farmville), keeping in contact with people, managing their money, doing heir work, etc. Most people are motivated enough to learn what they need to to address their pains and very little beyond that, partially because there is so much vying for our time and attention. I know computers, but I don't know cars yet I drive because it addresses many of my needs. I know mostly as much about a car as I need to. Learning more about it does not satisfy other needs of mine (I don't find them interesting, so they don't satisfy my curiosity needs). I would sound as stupid answering car questions as the NYC people on the street did answering Browser questions. So, do I need to learn more about cars or do computers need to work right for people who don't understand them?