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> This is a mess larger than I can comprehend, with scores of innocent dead. What's most sad about it, is that the current situation is the result of doing not

> This is a mess larger than I can comprehend, with scores of innocent dead. What's most sad about it, is that the current situation is the result of doing nothing, despite having crystal clear data on the situation, and in which (wrong) direction things has been changing. It's been clear that something needs to be done for years, even decades, but actually doing something about the situation would mean publicly acknowledging these facts. And nobody has been willing to do just that. In fact actually using these known indisputable facts has been systematically avoided for fear of being seen as "racist" or whatever. Putting the specific issue of immigration aside, I think that it's a very bad sign for the future of enlightened democracy when actually running a fact-based policy is deemed as "risky" and even unacceptable from a public relations point of view. If we let this attitude persist, we can do lots of wrongs in other areas as well: Think about environmental changes, etc etc. We need to heighten the status of cold data, of facts as a matter of indisputability. But that's not a left/right issue and I don't think you will find any party fronting such a position.

tomp 11y ago
> that the current situation is the result of doing nothing I think the current situation is the result of doing way too much the the past decade (or two). If the US and EU stayed out of the Middle East (Iraq, Libya, Syria), the EU+ME part of the world would be a much more peaceful place.
- josteink 11y ago
  Fair enough and absolutely a valid counterargument. Allow me to amend my comment slightly, and emphasise that I'm speaking of domestic policies. Across Europe we've seen increased ghettofication, social segregation and religious extremism. But because this has mostly been within demographic segments considered "weak" or "minorities", the explicit policy has consistently been sweeping things under the rug and proceeding as if nothing has been wrong. And that has landed Europe where it is today. Anyway. This is HN and I don't want to get more political than I need to. What bothers me the most is honestly the low status facts have in the politics of nations today, something I think should be a fairly incontroversial position.
  - kome 11y ago
    > But because this has mostly been within demographic segments considered "weak" or "minorities", the explicit policy has consistently been sweeping things under the rug and proceeding as if nothing has been wrong. perhaps the fact that they are "weak" or "minorities" is the cause and not the consequence of the attacks... I mean, in a complex society causality goes in any direction.
  - mistermann 11y ago
    > What bothers me the most is honestly the low status facts have in the politics of nations today 100% agree....when you can sit and watch a debate or discussion on TV, and one side or the other, or both, are using arguments that are known to be factually incorrect, it's bound to not turn out well. I think if we are going to accept immigration from anywhere, we should first figure out how to assimilate all cultures to prevent as you correctly note ghettofication, social segregation and religious extremism. The things we're seeing today might be small potatoes compared to what could happen if there's a mass uprising.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  >If the US and EU stayed out of the Middle East (Iraq, Libya, Syria), the EU+ME part of the world would be a much more peaceful place. I very much doubt that. Of course, there is no alternative reality where you could observe how things went when things were done differently, but there's no lack of violence in parts of the world where US and EU have not been doing things. And of course you are neglecting that especially after WWII, Soviet Union did not exactly stay out of places, either. For instance, Afghanistan and Somalia, the two most notorious failed states in the world, were actually run under Soviet influence for a considerable time. Syria is still very much in the Russian sphere of influence. Etc.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Include in the doubts, that some of those places were doing really abhorrent things (gassing whole villages and burying them in enormous berms with bulldozers). To stick your head in the sand, because some mad bombers, is a moral issue all it itself.
unfamiliar 11y ago
What exactly are these "facts" you keep alluding to?
- josteink 11y ago
  See my response here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336048
kome 11y ago
> Putting the specific issue of immigration aside, I think that it's a very bad sign for the future of enlightened democracy when actually running a fact-based policy is deemed as "risky" and even unacceptable from a public relations point of view. A "fact-based policy" is utopia. What for you is a fact, for me it's not. You can not have policy without politics.
- mistermann 11y ago
  Do you really think that? I mean, what would you consider a fact that is not agreed upon?
creshal 11y ago
> It's been clear that something needs to be done for years And what? That "something" needs to be done was clear since the 80s, but so far constructive solutions have been rather sparse. Integration is too expensive to the austerity and privatization loving right wing, and expulsion doesn't work because our economies depend on cheap immigrant labour. So far I've not seen anyone seen pushing for a different solution.
- rtpg 11y ago
  How about letting people be who they are without whining about people's behaviors not being "French enough" or whatever? Say what you will about America's institutional racism, but I have rarely heard an American whine about people not acting American enough (maybe I'm hanging in the wrong circles) Meanwhile I would hear a lot of complaining about riff raff accumulating around ethnic grocers and the like messing up the "culture " of downtown Nantes. The integration fallacy is one that is doomed to fail from the outset. The people define an area, not the other way around. Let people do what they want, the free flow of ideas will do the rest.
  - creshal 11y ago
    > How about letting people be who they are without whining about people's behaviors not being "French enough" or whatever? Belgium does not have this problem.
jld89 11y ago
Yes I am also immensely interested about these 'facts' you continually allude to.
matthewmacleod 11y ago
I don't understand what "known indisputable facts" you are referring to. Genuinely, I don't.
DanBC 11y ago
> Putting the specific issue of immigration aside Why? https://twitter.com/caitlinmoran/status/712254657662418944 https://twitter.com/caitlinmoran/status/712254657662418944 > Always good, on days like this, to remind everyone that the guys blowing up Brussels are THE PEOPLE THE REFUGEES ARE RUNNING AWAY FROM

tomp 11y ago

> that the current situation is the result of doing nothing I think the current situation is the result of doing way too much the the past decade (or two). If the US and EU stayed out of the Middle East (Iraq, Libya, Syria), the EU+ME part of the world would be a much more peaceful place.

josteink 11y ago
Fair enough and absolutely a valid counterargument. Allow me to amend my comment slightly, and emphasise that I'm speaking of domestic policies. Across Europe we've seen increased ghettofication, social segregation and religious extremism. But because this has mostly been within demographic segments considered "weak" or "minorities", the explicit policy has consistently been sweeping things under the rug and proceeding as if nothing has been wrong. And that has landed Europe where it is today. Anyway. This is HN and I don't want to get more political than I need to. What bothers me the most is honestly the low status facts have in the politics of nations today, something I think should be a fairly incontroversial position.
- kome 11y ago
  > But because this has mostly been within demographic segments considered "weak" or "minorities", the explicit policy has consistently been sweeping things under the rug and proceeding as if nothing has been wrong. perhaps the fact that they are "weak" or "minorities" is the cause and not the consequence of the attacks... I mean, in a complex society causality goes in any direction.
- mistermann 11y ago
  > What bothers me the most is honestly the low status facts have in the politics of nations today 100% agree....when you can sit and watch a debate or discussion on TV, and one side or the other, or both, are using arguments that are known to be factually incorrect, it's bound to not turn out well. I think if we are going to accept immigration from anywhere, we should first figure out how to assimilate all cultures to prevent as you correctly note ghettofication, social segregation and religious extremism. The things we're seeing today might be small potatoes compared to what could happen if there's a mass uprising.
ptaipale 11y ago
>If the US and EU stayed out of the Middle East (Iraq, Libya, Syria), the EU+ME part of the world would be a much more peaceful place. I very much doubt that. Of course, there is no alternative reality where you could observe how things went when things were done differently, but there's no lack of violence in parts of the world where US and EU have not been doing things. And of course you are neglecting that especially after WWII, Soviet Union did not exactly stay out of places, either. For instance, Afghanistan and Somalia, the two most notorious failed states in the world, were actually run under Soviet influence for a considerable time. Syria is still very much in the Russian sphere of influence. Etc.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Include in the doubts, that some of those places were doing really abhorrent things (gassing whole villages and burying them in enormous berms with bulldozers). To stick your head in the sand, because some mad bombers, is a moral issue all it itself.

unfamiliar 11y ago

What exactly are these "facts" you keep alluding to?

josteink 11y ago
See my response here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336048

kome 11y ago

> Putting the specific issue of immigration aside, I think that it's a very bad sign for the future of enlightened democracy when actually running a fact-based policy is deemed as "risky" and even unacceptable from a public relations point of view. A "fact-based policy" is utopia. What for you is a fact, for me it's not. You can not have policy without politics.

mistermann 11y ago
Do you really think that? I mean, what would you consider a fact that is not agreed upon?

creshal 11y ago

> It's been clear that something needs to be done for years And what? That "something" needs to be done was clear since the 80s, but so far constructive solutions have been rather sparse. Integration is too expensive to the austerity and privatization loving right wing, and expulsion doesn't work because our economies depend on cheap immigrant labour. So far I've not seen anyone seen pushing for a different solution.

rtpg 11y ago
How about letting people be who they are without whining about people's behaviors not being "French enough" or whatever? Say what you will about America's institutional racism, but I have rarely heard an American whine about people not acting American enough (maybe I'm hanging in the wrong circles) Meanwhile I would hear a lot of complaining about riff raff accumulating around ethnic grocers and the like messing up the "culture " of downtown Nantes. The integration fallacy is one that is doomed to fail from the outset. The people define an area, not the other way around. Let people do what they want, the free flow of ideas will do the rest.
- creshal 11y ago
  > How about letting people be who they are without whining about people's behaviors not being "French enough" or whatever? Belgium does not have this problem.

jld89 11y ago

Yes I am also immensely interested about these 'facts' you continually allude to.

matthewmacleod 11y ago

I don't understand what "known indisputable facts" you are referring to. Genuinely, I don't.

DanBC 11y ago

> Putting the specific issue of immigration aside Why? https://twitter.com/caitlinmoran/status/712254657662418944 https://twitter.com/caitlinmoran/status/712254657662418944 > Always good, on days like this, to remind everyone that the guys blowing up Brussels are THE PEOPLE THE REFUGEES ARE RUNNING AWAY FROM