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The Paris attackers were French and Belgian, not immigrants. This has been the case with almost all attacks in Europe, where the perpetrators have almost always

The Paris attackers were French and Belgian, not immigrants. This has been the case with almost all attacks in Europe, where the perpetrators have almost always been local.

odinduty 11y ago
Mohamed Abrini and Salah Abdeslam really do sound like francophone names! Come on, let's try not to have to discuss this...
- ascorbic 11y ago
  There we go. Barack Obama really does sound like an anglophone name. I bet their skin colour is really suspicious too.
raverbashing 11y ago
"Local", yes, keep telling yourself that 2nd generation immigrants I'm not against immigration per se, but there's a lot of problems coming from people who fail (because it's mostly their responsibility) to integrate
- ascorbic 11y ago
  If they're born in the country and lived there their whole life, they're local by any non-racist definition.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Do they think of themselves as local?
  - jbmorgado 11y ago
    Even when they don't speak the local language like it sometimes happens? Truth is, you can be so enclosed in a foreign culture that you will actually stay a foreigner trough all your life. P.S.: I'm not saying that was the case here, I'm just answering your broader remark.
  - mistermann 11y ago
    That's rather disingenuous. They are second generation immigrants of a particular religion that seems to be coincidentally associated time after time in these incidents.
    - ascorbic 11y ago
      Second generation immigrants don't mean this a problem with immigration. Lots of people like to link this to the current Syrian refugee crisis, but none of them are refugees. If you want to make it about immigration, make it about immigration from France's former colonies in the 1960s and 70s.
      - mistermann 11y ago
        > Second generation immigrants don't mean this a problem with immigration And that they're not first generation immigrants doesn't prove it isn't a problem with immigration either. We are still left with this recurring coincidence aren't we. I don't claim to know the absolute truth here, I'm just suggesting we honestly acknowledge reality during discussions.
        ascorbic 11y ago
        It's not first generation immigrants or refugees doing this. It's not Syrians doing this. By what possible rationale could you say that recent immigration has anything to do with this, other than that they're Muslim?
        mistermann 11y ago
        > By what possible rationale could you say that recent immigration has anything to do with this I didn't say it was recent immigration that caused this incident, we both know that (if they are 2nd generation, it couldn't be recent). > other than that they're Muslim You think that their religion has absolutely nothing to do with this? I mean, even unjust prejudice within their host country because of their religion could easily cause social isolation and economic disadvantage leading to anger - that seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation to me and largely places the ultimate blame on the host country.
  - tobltobs 11y ago
    Even if they hate the society they live in, even if they do not accept the laws, even if they do not contribute anything but demand a lot, even if they do not speak the language, even if they raise their kids to become the same religious fags, even if they support people attacking the country where they are "locals"?
- matthewmacleod 11y ago
  Sure, there are loads of problems due to ghettoisation or whatever. That has nothing to do with 'recent migration policies'.
- george_soros 11y ago
  They don't fail to integrate, they don't want to. Big difference. I believe there will be a time in Europe, when people will have enough and will demand deportation of every muslim. So 99 good muslims will be deported for every 1 bad muslim. I'm not saying I want this time to come, but what else can happen ? Drastic times == drastic measures.
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    Yes, the word "fail" in this case does not mean the aspect you're pointing does not exist
  - drjesusphd 11y ago
    Except these times really aren't that drastic. A moderately successful terrorist attack on occasion does not Armageddon make.
    - qb45 11y ago
      They are, living in a place where such things can happen at any time is stressful and sooner or later people will get pissed of.
  - ascorbic 11y ago
    More people die in the average week from car accidents in Europe than from terrorism in the whole of last year (which was mostly the Paris attacks). I'm not saying we should ban driving, but drastic times etc. Most of the terrorists speak French. I'm not saying we should deport all Francophones, but drastic times..
- gotchange 11y ago
  Integration is a two-way street. It's a 50/50 responsibility shared between host governments and migrants. From what I see, the Arabs/Muslims in Belgium (btw I'm from the same region so spare me your lectures about tolerance and openness for now) are not doing enough to integrate with the wider community but the Belgian authorities and political elites are not doing enough either to integrate these people and combat marginalization and discrimination that they may experience. Also, Belgium political system is also not helping given its fractured nature thus limiting its options to effectively tackle those challenges and if we take into account the weak economic reality of Brussels add to that its ineffective fight of organized crime (Funding terrorist attacks and armaments) creating a perfect storm for this type of events to flourish whether in Belgium or spilling into other parts of Europe like what happened in Paris last November.
ptaipale 11y ago
>The Paris attackers were French and Belgian, not immigrants. Two of the nine were not - they were actual, recent immigrants through asylum-seeking process. "Ahmad al-Mohammad" who came as a refugee through Turkey to Leroa in Greece, and together with him were registered the fingerprints of another immigrant known as "M. al-Mahmodin". The rest were second-generation immigrants: Bilal Hadfi was French but he spent time in Syria and came back, not through controlled border crossings, so he might have come with the asylees/immigrants. Others included French citizens Samy Amimour, who fought in Yemen, and Omar Ismail Mostefai and Foued Mohamed-Aggad who fought in Syria, and they were on wanted lists but were not spotted on border, so they appear to have come through people smugglers as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks#Identification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks#Id...
- ascorbic 11y ago
  The fact that Hadfi probably returned with refugees doesn't mean much, when he could have easily jumped on the Easyjet from Istanbul and strolled through the blue channel. Yes, two more of them also probably came that way, one of whom was on a false passport. So yes, maybe they were Syrian refugees, but all that says is that they haven't been identified. The fact that the only one of them who travelled that way who was positively identified turned out to be French means this is by no means a foregone conclusion. If it turns out that they were in fact refugees, that still doesn't make it a migration problem when most of the attackers were French or Belgian.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    >The fact that Hadfi probably returned with refugees doesn't mean much, when he could have easily jumped on the Easyjet from Istanbul If he'd jumped on Easyjet from Istanbul, he'd have had to provide a passport and visa and risk being arrested at border check in case the authorities were too interested in his involvement with extremists. I don't get your point about blue channel; flights from Istanbul are not EU/Schengen internal. Again, that's not something that totally prevents acts of terror, but would work as a bit of deterrent. I believe I should have a voice about this, because I live in the same Schengen area.

The Paris attackers were French and Belgian, not immigrants. This has been the case with almost all attacks in Europe, where the perpetrators have almost always been local.

odinduty 11y ago

Mohamed Abrini and Salah Abdeslam really do sound like francophone names! Come on, let's try not to have to discuss this...

ascorbic 11y ago
There we go. Barack Obama really does sound like an anglophone name. I bet their skin colour is really suspicious too.

raverbashing 11y ago

"Local", yes, keep telling yourself that 2nd generation immigrants I'm not against immigration per se, but there's a lot of problems coming from people who fail (because it's mostly their responsibility) to integrate

ascorbic 11y ago
If they're born in the country and lived there their whole life, they're local by any non-racist definition.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Do they think of themselves as local?
- jbmorgado 11y ago
  Even when they don't speak the local language like it sometimes happens? Truth is, you can be so enclosed in a foreign culture that you will actually stay a foreigner trough all your life. P.S.: I'm not saying that was the case here, I'm just answering your broader remark.
- mistermann 11y ago
  That's rather disingenuous. They are second generation immigrants of a particular religion that seems to be coincidentally associated time after time in these incidents.
  - ascorbic 11y ago
    Second generation immigrants don't mean this a problem with immigration. Lots of people like to link this to the current Syrian refugee crisis, but none of them are refugees. If you want to make it about immigration, make it about immigration from France's former colonies in the 1960s and 70s.
    - mistermann 11y ago
      > Second generation immigrants don't mean this a problem with immigration And that they're not first generation immigrants doesn't prove it isn't a problem with immigration either. We are still left with this recurring coincidence aren't we. I don't claim to know the absolute truth here, I'm just suggesting we honestly acknowledge reality during discussions.
      - ascorbic 11y ago
        It's not first generation immigrants or refugees doing this. It's not Syrians doing this. By what possible rationale could you say that recent immigration has anything to do with this, other than that they're Muslim?
        mistermann 11y ago
        > By what possible rationale could you say that recent immigration has anything to do with this I didn't say it was recent immigration that caused this incident, we both know that (if they are 2nd generation, it couldn't be recent). > other than that they're Muslim You think that their religion has absolutely nothing to do with this? I mean, even unjust prejudice within their host country because of their religion could easily cause social isolation and economic disadvantage leading to anger - that seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation to me and largely places the ultimate blame on the host country.
- tobltobs 11y ago
  Even if they hate the society they live in, even if they do not accept the laws, even if they do not contribute anything but demand a lot, even if they do not speak the language, even if they raise their kids to become the same religious fags, even if they support people attacking the country where they are "locals"?
matthewmacleod 11y ago
Sure, there are loads of problems due to ghettoisation or whatever. That has nothing to do with 'recent migration policies'.
george_soros 11y ago
They don't fail to integrate, they don't want to. Big difference. I believe there will be a time in Europe, when people will have enough and will demand deportation of every muslim. So 99 good muslims will be deported for every 1 bad muslim. I'm not saying I want this time to come, but what else can happen ? Drastic times == drastic measures.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Yes, the word "fail" in this case does not mean the aspect you're pointing does not exist
- drjesusphd 11y ago
  Except these times really aren't that drastic. A moderately successful terrorist attack on occasion does not Armageddon make.
  - qb45 11y ago
    They are, living in a place where such things can happen at any time is stressful and sooner or later people will get pissed of.
- ascorbic 11y ago
  More people die in the average week from car accidents in Europe than from terrorism in the whole of last year (which was mostly the Paris attacks). I'm not saying we should ban driving, but drastic times etc. Most of the terrorists speak French. I'm not saying we should deport all Francophones, but drastic times..
gotchange 11y ago
Integration is a two-way street. It's a 50/50 responsibility shared between host governments and migrants. From what I see, the Arabs/Muslims in Belgium (btw I'm from the same region so spare me your lectures about tolerance and openness for now) are not doing enough to integrate with the wider community but the Belgian authorities and political elites are not doing enough either to integrate these people and combat marginalization and discrimination that they may experience. Also, Belgium political system is also not helping given its fractured nature thus limiting its options to effectively tackle those challenges and if we take into account the weak economic reality of Brussels add to that its ineffective fight of organized crime (Funding terrorist attacks and armaments) creating a perfect storm for this type of events to flourish whether in Belgium or spilling into other parts of Europe like what happened in Paris last November.

ptaipale 11y ago

>The Paris attackers were French and Belgian, not immigrants. Two of the nine were not - they were actual, recent immigrants through asylum-seeking process. "Ahmad al-Mohammad" who came as a refugee through Turkey to Leroa in Greece, and together with him were registered the fingerprints of another immigrant known as "M. al-Mahmodin". The rest were second-generation immigrants: Bilal Hadfi was French but he spent time in Syria and came back, not through controlled border crossings, so he might have come with the asylees/immigrants. Others included French citizens Samy Amimour, who fought in Yemen, and Omar Ismail Mostefai and Foued Mohamed-Aggad who fought in Syria, and they were on wanted lists but were not spotted on border, so they appear to have come through people smugglers as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks#Identification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks#Id...

ascorbic 11y ago
The fact that Hadfi probably returned with refugees doesn't mean much, when he could have easily jumped on the Easyjet from Istanbul and strolled through the blue channel. Yes, two more of them also probably came that way, one of whom was on a false passport. So yes, maybe they were Syrian refugees, but all that says is that they haven't been identified. The fact that the only one of them who travelled that way who was positively identified turned out to be French means this is by no means a foregone conclusion. If it turns out that they were in fact refugees, that still doesn't make it a migration problem when most of the attackers were French or Belgian.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  >The fact that Hadfi probably returned with refugees doesn't mean much, when he could have easily jumped on the Easyjet from Istanbul If he'd jumped on Easyjet from Istanbul, he'd have had to provide a passport and visa and risk being arrested at border check in case the authorities were too interested in his involvement with extremists. I don't get your point about blue channel; flights from Istanbul are not EU/Schengen internal. Again, that's not something that totally prevents acts of terror, but would work as a bit of deterrent. I believe I should have a voice about this, because I live in the same Schengen area.