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While it has a bit of snark to it, certainly conveys the point of "This is your PhD. No one is going to hold your hand. Get it done." The people who drop out o

While it has a bit of snark to it, certainly conveys the point of "This is your PhD. No one is going to hold your hand. Get it done." The people who drop out of PhD programs usually are plenty smart enough, they just don't know how to make things happen. Then again, some people seem content and happy to do 8 years of PhD studies followed by 10 more of meandering post-docs. Bummer is when they're surprised that no one wants to make them a professor.

drjesusphd 11y ago
> they just don't know how to make things happen I don't think that's fair either.
ska 11y ago
The people who drop out of PhD programs usually are plenty smart enough, they just don't know how to make things happen. Vast oversimplification. I've watched people leave Ph.D programs for a wide array of reasons. Any attempt at binary classification on this is foolhardy.
- static_noise 11y ago
  Clone a person ten times and send them to ten different positions, they will all fail for different reasons. Luck is as big a factor as is talent and diligence.
jackcosgrove 11y ago
I think most PhD students are set up to fail by graduate institutions. Graduate programs can often be corrosive environments with unrealistic expectations. Moreover even if you run the gauntlet and get a tenure-track job or a position in a national or even corporate lab, the training you received in graduate school is often inadequate preparation for the next step. I am not ascribing this latter point to malice but rather to a self-perpetuating canon that becomes increasingly distant from real-world applications. Universities also exploit people who depend on academic success for self-worth and validation. The head games that advisors play to goad graduate students on to do more work can be pretty unscrupulous. The very fact that universities can convince some of the smartest (if not those most possessing in common sense) people to work long hours for below minimum wage, while learning a body of knowledge of dubious value, is pretty amazing when I look back at it. In the real world, people pay you good money to do PhD level work. Job security and low work loads aren't on offer if you do an expected value calculation factoring in all of the tenure washouts. The only thing graduate programs offer in return for collapsing highly educated wages is an infinitesimal chance at fame. It is no less an exploitative championship system than professional sports or Hollywood. I think the only good reason to seek a PhD is for altruistic reasons, to expand human knowledge. But keep in mind that you are choosing the life of a 21st century cleric, with its attendant material deprivation and very good chance of never marrying or having a family.
KKKKkkkk1 11y ago
Sounds like one-sided advice from the point of view of the advisor. Fact is, the advisor-grad student relationship is two way, and the advisor, being the experienced scientist who plays the guiding role, is much more crucial to the success of the PhD than the student. When a PhD student meanders about for 8 years, it is likely that the advisor does not know "how to get things done" as much as the student.
- leemailll 11y ago
  You get it wrong. Many times the advisor doesn't care students future. There is many anecdotes about this, but the only one I heard publicly is Yitang Zhang and his Ph.D. Advisor's story.
bendmorris 11y ago
> The people who drop out of PhD programs usually are plenty smart enough, they just don't know how to make things happen. Generalizations like this aren't useful. I could just as easily say "The people who finish PhD programs are plenty smart, they just don't understand the sunk costs fallacy." I dropped out to make things happen. I took a job where I learned and developed myself more than I did as a student.
scarecrowbob 11y ago
"The people who drop out of PhD programs usually are plenty smart enough, they just don't know how to make things happen." It's possible that those of us who drop out of PhD programs have, in fact, made quite a few things "happen" in our lives and realized that the job market was terrible, the subject was... just stupid... and that there are other things in life than petty academic squabbles. Just to disclose, I was about 6 months away from defending my dissertation and didn't want to throw another half a year of my life away working at a minimum wage job so I might (possibly) be able to work at a poorly paying job for the rest of my life. It was the first really great adult decision that I made in my life.

drjesusphd 11y ago

> they just don't know how to make things happen I don't think that's fair either.

ska 11y ago

The people who drop out of PhD programs usually are plenty smart enough, they just don't know how to make things happen. Vast oversimplification. I've watched people leave Ph.D programs for a wide array of reasons. Any attempt at binary classification on this is foolhardy.

static_noise 11y ago
Clone a person ten times and send them to ten different positions, they will all fail for different reasons. Luck is as big a factor as is talent and diligence.

jackcosgrove 11y ago

I think most PhD students are set up to fail by graduate institutions. Graduate programs can often be corrosive environments with unrealistic expectations. Moreover even if you run the gauntlet and get a tenure-track job or a position in a national or even corporate lab, the training you received in graduate school is often inadequate preparation for the next step. I am not ascribing this latter point to malice but rather to a self-perpetuating canon that becomes increasingly distant from real-world applications. Universities also exploit people who depend on academic success for self-worth and validation. The head games that advisors play to goad graduate students on to do more work can be pretty unscrupulous. The very fact that universities can convince some of the smartest (if not those most possessing in common sense) people to work long hours for below minimum wage, while learning a body of knowledge of dubious value, is pretty amazing when I look back at it. In the real world, people pay you good money to do PhD level work. Job security and low work loads aren't on offer if you do an expected value calculation factoring in all of the tenure washouts. The only thing graduate programs offer in return for collapsing highly educated wages is an infinitesimal chance at fame. It is no less an exploitative championship system than professional sports or Hollywood. I think the only good reason to seek a PhD is for altruistic reasons, to expand human knowledge. But keep in mind that you are choosing the life of a 21st century cleric, with its attendant material deprivation and very good chance of never marrying or having a family.

KKKKkkkk1 11y ago

Sounds like one-sided advice from the point of view of the advisor. Fact is, the advisor-grad student relationship is two way, and the advisor, being the experienced scientist who plays the guiding role, is much more crucial to the success of the PhD than the student. When a PhD student meanders about for 8 years, it is likely that the advisor does not know "how to get things done" as much as the student.

leemailll 11y ago
You get it wrong. Many times the advisor doesn't care students future. There is many anecdotes about this, but the only one I heard publicly is Yitang Zhang and his Ph.D. Advisor's story.

bendmorris 11y ago

> The people who drop out of PhD programs usually are plenty smart enough, they just don't know how to make things happen. Generalizations like this aren't useful. I could just as easily say "The people who finish PhD programs are plenty smart, they just don't understand the sunk costs fallacy." I dropped out to make things happen. I took a job where I learned and developed myself more than I did as a student.

scarecrowbob 11y ago

"The people who drop out of PhD programs usually are plenty smart enough, they just don't know how to make things happen." It's possible that those of us who drop out of PhD programs have, in fact, made quite a few things "happen" in our lives and realized that the job market was terrible, the subject was... just stupid... and that there are other things in life than petty academic squabbles. Just to disclose, I was about 6 months away from defending my dissertation and didn't want to throw another half a year of my life away working at a minimum wage job so I might (possibly) be able to work at a poorly paying job for the rest of my life. It was the first really great adult decision that I made in my life.