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This is a mess larger than I can comprehend, with scores of innocent dead. The spectrum of political issues this crosses is vast. We're talking nationalism, imm

This is a mess larger than I can comprehend, with scores of innocent dead. The spectrum of political issues this crosses is vast. We're talking nationalism, immigration, religion, extremism, surveillance, privacy, and war to name a few. The nuance required to understand and attack the big picture is almost nowhere to be found. I saw the French PM said something like "we're at war" - I'm not sure who they're at war with but onward with the endless war. I've seen plenty of comments about ISIS. It's like a 99.999% chance it's not ISIS - maybe Al Qaeda, maybe a different extremist group. (For why it's probably not ISIS and one of the most fantastic explanations of the what's and whys of ISIS, see [0].) But it shows just how vastly uneducated most people are about the issues that lead to attacks like this. This breeds calls for extremism in response, like expelling all Muslims (and can only help Trump's campaign) or comments like the one from the French PM above. I can't imagine being in charge of trying to address all of the underlying issues that feed into attacks like this. And I don't know that those in charge are up to the task. [0] http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi... Edit: ISIS inspired maybe, but not ISIS planned and backed. "During his visit to Mosul in December, Jürgen Todenhöfer interviewed a portly German jihadist and asked whether any of his comrades had returned to Europe to carry out attacks. The jihadist seemed to regard returnees not as soldiers but as dropouts. “The fact is that the returnees from the Islamic State should repent from their return,” he said. “I hope they review their religion.”" I always stand to be corrected.

noobie 11y ago
Honest question that always crosses my mind. Why do we always assume a terrorist group is behind such attacks? Couldn't it be a couple of deranged persons acting on their own?
- swombat 11y ago
  Considering it comes 4 days after the arrest of the man who planned the Paris attacks, it's possible that this is just a couple of deranged people but it's unlikely. In this context, even with no detailed information about the attackers, it's quite likely that this is a terrorist attack somehow connected to fundamentalism/etc.
- VLM 11y ago
  Look up the concept of "never let a crisis go to waste", and its a two parter, the stated first part is "ISIS musta dunnit" and the second unstated or quietly stated part is "and thats why we have to expel all muslims" or "thats why we need to give a campaign donor of mine a trillion dollars to increase security" or "there's a lot of countries we haven't made safe for democracy yet and I was thinking ..." You should see the wind go out of politicans sails when they learn an event like this is a random nutcase. They look like their dog died.
- cronjobber 11y ago
  Not likely, because in places like Belgium, deranged persons don't have access to the kind of weapons and explosives used in attacks like these.
josteink 11y ago
> This is a mess larger than I can comprehend, with scores of innocent dead. What's most sad about it, is that the current situation is the result of doing nothing, despite having crystal clear data on the situation, and in which (wrong) direction things has been changing. It's been clear that something needs to be done for years, even decades, but actually doing something about the situation would mean publicly acknowledging these facts. And nobody has been willing to do just that. In fact actually using these known indisputable facts has been systematically avoided for fear of being seen as "racist" or whatever. Putting the specific issue of immigration aside, I think that it's a very bad sign for the future of enlightened democracy when actually running a fact-based policy is deemed as "risky" and even unacceptable from a public relations point of view. If we let this attitude persist, we can do lots of wrongs in other areas as well: Think about environmental changes, etc etc. We need to heighten the status of cold data, of facts as a matter of indisputability. But that's not a left/right issue and I don't think you will find any party fronting such a position.
- tomp 11y ago
  > that the current situation is the result of doing nothing I think the current situation is the result of doing way too much the the past decade (or two). If the US and EU stayed out of the Middle East (Iraq, Libya, Syria), the EU+ME part of the world would be a much more peaceful place.
  - josteink 11y ago
    Fair enough and absolutely a valid counterargument. Allow me to amend my comment slightly, and emphasise that I'm speaking of domestic policies. Across Europe we've seen increased ghettofication, social segregation and religious extremism. But because this has mostly been within demographic segments considered "weak" or "minorities", the explicit policy has consistently been sweeping things under the rug and proceeding as if nothing has been wrong. And that has landed Europe where it is today. Anyway. This is HN and I don't want to get more political than I need to. What bothers me the most is honestly the low status facts have in the politics of nations today, something I think should be a fairly incontroversial position.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
cm2187 11y ago
In fact even the Paris attacks wasn't really ISIS. It was the work of French and Belgium nationals, attacking their own country. They may have received some support in Syria but the gvt is trying to make it look like foreign attacks because it avoids to put the focus on difficult questions (the radicalisation of their muslim minorities, and the growing anti-western sentiment in their 1st and 2nd generation immigration).
- JshWright 11y ago
  By "some support" you mean extensive training and material support, then sure... I guess... I think it would be fair to call them French/Belgian ISIS members. There is no requirement that you must be Syrian to be a member of ISIS.
  - cm2187 11y ago
    European communist terrorists in the 70s were getting trained in Palestinian terrorists camps. They would even get weapons there. They are still European movements. Pretending that it was a foreign aggression is a lie.
    - JshWright 11y ago
      I don't see how that example applies. You're trying to compare ISIS (a group brought together by a common ideology) to Palestinians (a nationality/ethnicity). You're drawing a foreign/domestic distinction when none exists. There is no reason someone cannot be Belgian, and also a member of ISIS. What is your criteria for inclusion in "ISIS" if it's not someone saying "I'm with ISIS"?
JshWright 11y ago
I haven't read the entire Atlantic piece, but given the fact that we know there is an ISIS affiliated group operating Belgium, I don't see how you can possibly be so certain it wasn't ISIS. I think it's far more likely that these attacks were triggered by the recent arrest of Salah Abdeslam and the killing of Mohamed Belkaid (in two different raids). There were multiple other suspects who were not captured/killed, and it seem plausible that they carried out these attacks now as they felt the police were closing in. I'm not claiming that all terror attacks are always ISIS, and I'm not saying I'm sure this was ISIS, but given recent events in Belgium, the likelihood of ISIS involvement is a _lot_ higher than 0.001%.
- themartorana 11y ago
  I think there is a marked difference between ISIS affiliated and ISIS supported. Any group can claim affiliation/solidarity with ISIS. But I really do recommend reading the Atlantic piece, it's the only deep dive I've ever seen written that explains some seemingly inexplicable behavior. That said, I agree this is likely retaliation, I'm just not sure how big the "enemy" we're fighting in Belgium is. Today's attack took a minimum of what, 3 people?
  - JshWright 11y ago
    > Today's attack took a minimum of what, 3 people? At least twice that. Some sort of cell leader, a bombmaker, logistics, bombers, etc...
ekianjo 11y ago
> I saw the French PM said something like "we're at war" - I'm not sure who they're at war with but onward with the endless war. They have been saying that since the terrorists attacks of 2015 in France. Nothing new. And France is actually at war against ISIS, that's not a secret for anyone.
golemotron 11y ago
> This is a mess larger than I can comprehend, with scores of innocent dead. The spectrum of political issues this crosses is vast. We're talking nationalism, immigration, religion, extremism, surveillance, privacy, and war to name a few. The nuance required to understand and attack the big picture is almost nowhere to be found. The problem is very simple: cultural incompatibility.
- Majestic121 11y ago
  Oversimplification of complex subjects neither leads to useful action nor helps to understand the issue. It is better to stay humble, as the parent comment was.
  - golemotron 11y ago
    Dismissal of analysis neither leads to useful action nor helps to understand the issue. Think about it. You owe that to yourself.
    - Majestic121 11y ago
      It was not an analysis. It might be qualified as the catchphrase for an analysis, at best.
    - maze-le 11y ago
      Alas, this wasn't an analysis. If you would give substantial arguments, as to why you think that cultural differences, incompatibility how you'd like to call it, are the main reason for terrorism, you could call it an analysis... But not like this.
Kiro 11y ago
> It's like a 99.999% chance it's not ISIS [...] it shows just how vastly uneducated most people are about the issues that lead to attacks like this. The article you're linking to was written before the November attacks which certainly was by ISIS.
rorykoehler 11y ago
> And I don't know that those in charge are up to the task. They created the mess in the first place with regressive colonial era imperialist policies. Just take a look at this photo from Afghanistan [0] before the US decided to arm the Taliban in a proxy war against the Russians. [0] https://www.pinterest.com/pin/107734616059030266/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/107734616059030266/
- ptaipale 11y ago
  Well, just remember that the time of these pictures is also from before USSR started to meddle extensively in the country. Afghanistan was a kingdom until 1973, then after a coup a "republic" with closer ties to USSR, and was later declared an "Islamic republic" by Soviet ally Najibullah.
mtgx 11y ago
The media certainly doesn't want to discuss the real issues in regards to terrorist attacks and why they may exist. I don't think it's as simple as "they hate our way our life" as the governments around the world try to portray it and the media seems to go along with it without questions that logic.
- danharaj 11y ago
  Of course it's not "they hate our way of life". Unless "our way of life" is letting our governments run amok destroying their homelands, installing brutal dictators and kleptocracies, and selling all their resources to multinational corporations; then when they flee their countries, "we" separate them off into banlieues and exclude them from social and economic participation. Everyone loves the material wealth neoliberalism gives them, but acts completely oblivious when confronted with the pure violence of its operation outside of the western bubble.
bwindels 11y ago
I agree with your sentiment for the need of nuance. The attacks though, as suspected by many, do seem to have been to work of ISIS: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35869254 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35869254
pavelrub 11y ago
ISIS just claimed responsibility for the attacks.
- themartorana 11y ago
  I can't edit my post above anymore, but I do stand corrected.
cbennett 11y ago
Corrected: ISIS official media wing has claimed responsibility for the attack http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brussels-attacks-isis-claims-responsibility-deadly-bombings-airport-subway/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brussels-attacks-isis-claims-res...
themartorana 11y ago
I stand corrected. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-blast-idUSKCN0WO0LB http://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-blast-idUSKCN0WO0L...

noobie 11y ago

Honest question that always crosses my mind. Why do we always assume a terrorist group is behind such attacks? Couldn't it be a couple of deranged persons acting on their own?

swombat 11y ago
Considering it comes 4 days after the arrest of the man who planned the Paris attacks, it's possible that this is just a couple of deranged people but it's unlikely. In this context, even with no detailed information about the attackers, it's quite likely that this is a terrorist attack somehow connected to fundamentalism/etc.
VLM 11y ago
Look up the concept of "never let a crisis go to waste", and its a two parter, the stated first part is "ISIS musta dunnit" and the second unstated or quietly stated part is "and thats why we have to expel all muslims" or "thats why we need to give a campaign donor of mine a trillion dollars to increase security" or "there's a lot of countries we haven't made safe for democracy yet and I was thinking ..." You should see the wind go out of politicans sails when they learn an event like this is a random nutcase. They look like their dog died.
cronjobber 11y ago
Not likely, because in places like Belgium, deranged persons don't have access to the kind of weapons and explosives used in attacks like these.

josteink 11y ago

> This is a mess larger than I can comprehend, with scores of innocent dead. What's most sad about it, is that the current situation is the result of doing nothing, despite having crystal clear data on the situation, and in which (wrong) direction things has been changing. It's been clear that something needs to be done for years, even decades, but actually doing something about the situation would mean publicly acknowledging these facts. And nobody has been willing to do just that. In fact actually using these known indisputable facts has been systematically avoided for fear of being seen as "racist" or whatever. Putting the specific issue of immigration aside, I think that it's a very bad sign for the future of enlightened democracy when actually running a fact-based policy is deemed as "risky" and even unacceptable from a public relations point of view. If we let this attitude persist, we can do lots of wrongs in other areas as well: Think about environmental changes, etc etc. We need to heighten the status of cold data, of facts as a matter of indisputability. But that's not a left/right issue and I don't think you will find any party fronting such a position.

tomp 11y ago
> that the current situation is the result of doing nothing I think the current situation is the result of doing way too much the the past decade (or two). If the US and EU stayed out of the Middle East (Iraq, Libya, Syria), the EU+ME part of the world would be a much more peaceful place.
- josteink 11y ago
  Fair enough and absolutely a valid counterargument. Allow me to amend my comment slightly, and emphasise that I'm speaking of domestic policies. Across Europe we've seen increased ghettofication, social segregation and religious extremism. But because this has mostly been within demographic segments considered "weak" or "minorities", the explicit policy has consistently been sweeping things under the rug and proceeding as if nothing has been wrong. And that has landed Europe where it is today. Anyway. This is HN and I don't want to get more political than I need to. What bothers me the most is honestly the low status facts have in the politics of nations today, something I think should be a fairly incontroversial position.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

cm2187 11y ago

In fact even the Paris attacks wasn't really ISIS. It was the work of French and Belgium nationals, attacking their own country. They may have received some support in Syria but the gvt is trying to make it look like foreign attacks because it avoids to put the focus on difficult questions (the radicalisation of their muslim minorities, and the growing anti-western sentiment in their 1st and 2nd generation immigration).

JshWright 11y ago
By "some support" you mean extensive training and material support, then sure... I guess... I think it would be fair to call them French/Belgian ISIS members. There is no requirement that you must be Syrian to be a member of ISIS.
- cm2187 11y ago
  European communist terrorists in the 70s were getting trained in Palestinian terrorists camps. They would even get weapons there. They are still European movements. Pretending that it was a foreign aggression is a lie.
  - JshWright 11y ago
    I don't see how that example applies. You're trying to compare ISIS (a group brought together by a common ideology) to Palestinians (a nationality/ethnicity). You're drawing a foreign/domestic distinction when none exists. There is no reason someone cannot be Belgian, and also a member of ISIS. What is your criteria for inclusion in "ISIS" if it's not someone saying "I'm with ISIS"?

JshWright 11y ago

I haven't read the entire Atlantic piece, but given the fact that we know there is an ISIS affiliated group operating Belgium, I don't see how you can possibly be so certain it wasn't ISIS. I think it's far more likely that these attacks were triggered by the recent arrest of Salah Abdeslam and the killing of Mohamed Belkaid (in two different raids). There were multiple other suspects who were not captured/killed, and it seem plausible that they carried out these attacks now as they felt the police were closing in. I'm not claiming that all terror attacks are always ISIS, and I'm not saying I'm sure this was ISIS, but given recent events in Belgium, the likelihood of ISIS involvement is a _lot_ higher than 0.001%.

themartorana 11y ago
I think there is a marked difference between ISIS affiliated and ISIS supported. Any group can claim affiliation/solidarity with ISIS. But I really do recommend reading the Atlantic piece, it's the only deep dive I've ever seen written that explains some seemingly inexplicable behavior. That said, I agree this is likely retaliation, I'm just not sure how big the "enemy" we're fighting in Belgium is. Today's attack took a minimum of what, 3 people?
- JshWright 11y ago
  > Today's attack took a minimum of what, 3 people? At least twice that. Some sort of cell leader, a bombmaker, logistics, bombers, etc...

ekianjo 11y ago

> I saw the French PM said something like "we're at war" - I'm not sure who they're at war with but onward with the endless war. They have been saying that since the terrorists attacks of 2015 in France. Nothing new. And France is actually at war against ISIS, that's not a secret for anyone.

golemotron 11y ago

> This is a mess larger than I can comprehend, with scores of innocent dead. The spectrum of political issues this crosses is vast. We're talking nationalism, immigration, religion, extremism, surveillance, privacy, and war to name a few. The nuance required to understand and attack the big picture is almost nowhere to be found. The problem is very simple: cultural incompatibility.

Majestic121 11y ago
Oversimplification of complex subjects neither leads to useful action nor helps to understand the issue. It is better to stay humble, as the parent comment was.
- golemotron 11y ago
  Dismissal of analysis neither leads to useful action nor helps to understand the issue. Think about it. You owe that to yourself.
  - Majestic121 11y ago
    It was not an analysis. It might be qualified as the catchphrase for an analysis, at best.
  - maze-le 11y ago
    Alas, this wasn't an analysis. If you would give substantial arguments, as to why you think that cultural differences, incompatibility how you'd like to call it, are the main reason for terrorism, you could call it an analysis... But not like this.

Kiro 11y ago

> It's like a 99.999% chance it's not ISIS [...] it shows just how vastly uneducated most people are about the issues that lead to attacks like this. The article you're linking to was written before the November attacks which certainly was by ISIS.

rorykoehler 11y ago

> And I don't know that those in charge are up to the task. They created the mess in the first place with regressive colonial era imperialist policies. Just take a look at this photo from Afghanistan [0] before the US decided to arm the Taliban in a proxy war against the Russians. [0] https://www.pinterest.com/pin/107734616059030266/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/107734616059030266/

ptaipale 11y ago
Well, just remember that the time of these pictures is also from before USSR started to meddle extensively in the country. Afghanistan was a kingdom until 1973, then after a coup a "republic" with closer ties to USSR, and was later declared an "Islamic republic" by Soviet ally Najibullah.

mtgx 11y ago

The media certainly doesn't want to discuss the real issues in regards to terrorist attacks and why they may exist. I don't think it's as simple as "they hate our way our life" as the governments around the world try to portray it and the media seems to go along with it without questions that logic.

danharaj 11y ago
Of course it's not "they hate our way of life". Unless "our way of life" is letting our governments run amok destroying their homelands, installing brutal dictators and kleptocracies, and selling all their resources to multinational corporations; then when they flee their countries, "we" separate them off into banlieues and exclude them from social and economic participation. Everyone loves the material wealth neoliberalism gives them, but acts completely oblivious when confronted with the pure violence of its operation outside of the western bubble.

bwindels 11y ago

I agree with your sentiment for the need of nuance. The attacks though, as suspected by many, do seem to have been to work of ISIS: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35869254 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35869254

pavelrub 11y ago

ISIS just claimed responsibility for the attacks.

themartorana 11y ago
I can't edit my post above anymore, but I do stand corrected.

cbennett 11y ago

Corrected: ISIS official media wing has claimed responsibility for the attack http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brussels-attacks-isis-claims-responsibility-deadly-bombings-airport-subway/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brussels-attacks-isis-claims-res...

themartorana 11y ago

I stand corrected. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-blast-idUSKCN0WO0LB http://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-blast-idUSKCN0WO0L...