4 ms·

In addition to the lives lost in these attacks, what makes me just as sad is that this is probably going to push more people towards leaders like Donald Trump w

by abhi3 11y ago

In addition to the lives lost in these attacks, what makes me just as sad is that this is probably going to push more people towards leaders like Donald Trump who'll take advantage of the fear/anger this creates.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
It will, and in fact that's probably the goal of the attacks. If Muslims feel unsafe in Europe, it supports ISIS's image of itself as an Islamic state that is a safe haven for Muslims (even if this is nonsense).
- _delirium 11y ago
  They've come pretty close [1] to saying that's their goal, to polarize European politics so that European Muslims must choose either Europe or Islam. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12002726/The-grey-zone-How-Isis-wants-to-divide-the-world-into-Muslims-and-crusaders.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/1200...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
agumonkey 11y ago
It's getting harder and harder to calm people down.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  That's precisely the goal. The very best response to attacks like these would be to simply treat them as ordinary crimes but that's never going to fly in the current political climate. And so we escalate. The end-state of this is civil war, and if it keeps going for a while we'll have a re-run of the Yugoslavian wars without the added benefit of a nicely segregated population so that it can be stopped. The kind of language I hear around me from otherwise intelligent people is extremely worrying.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    I was a bit angry at the French (amongst other) government response toward the Paris attacks. Lack of wisdom and fluff sign of strength. And as you said, it giving them the credit they're asking for. We're here discussing on a website, what else can we do ? is the invisible flow of emotion flowing up to countries head too heavy ?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
i_feel_great 11y ago
Which is what the terrorists want by attacking civilians.
staticelf 11y ago
Honestly, I despise Donald Trump, but in the same time I am very anti-establishment because in my country we've taken in hundreds of thousands of immigrants for many years and we're only 9.x million citizens. I have sympathy with people who are angry, as I am, with the lack of good leadership from at least the leaders in my country, the lack of security and action is astonishing. I do not live in the US, but I can guess the people who vote for Trump feels kind of the same way I feel about the politicians in my country.
ramblerman 11y ago
Whilst I agree with you that a posse mentality is a dangerous thing, a PC agenda run amock is equally so. Abdeslam (the last terrorist from the france attacks) was arrested in Belgium 3 days ago and upon his removal from the area, youths gathered chanting his name and throwing bottles at the police combis. The national media chose not to cover this for the same reasons you laid out and it has caused a bit of a furore in Belgium. The distinction between racism and the fight against bad ideas (religious extremism) is often blurred by both the extreme right and the left.
- norniron 11y ago
  Source?
  - ramblerman 11y ago
    - http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/32616/Terreurdreiging-in-Belgie/article/detail/2653240/2016/03/21/Bourgeois-Jammer-dat-journaal-flessengooiende-jongeren-in-Molenbeek-niet-uitzond.dhtml http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/32616/Terreurdreiging-in-Belgie/art... - http://www.brusselnieuws.be/nl/nieuws/jongeren-gooiden-stenen-naar-agenten-ambulance-en-pers http://www.brusselnieuws.be/nl/nieuws/jongeren-gooiden-stene... - http://www.demorgen.be/opinie/de-marokkaanse-gemeenschap-moet-stoppen-zich-te-wentelen-in-de-positie-van-underdog-bc6dcfbe/ http://www.demorgen.be/opinie/de-marokkaanse-gemeenschap-moe...
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  When you marginalise and stigmatise people, and give them no hope for the future, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them end up reacting like that.
  - ramblerman 11y ago
    That argument is naive at best. These kids have smartphones, internet, and full access to state funded education to the university level. Yet we still have seen a large departure to Syria. There is a concerted effort to indoctrinate these youths, and criticism against anything islam is not allowing this debate to be held. See this article "Remove the Saudi influence from our mosques" http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/regio/brussel/1.2507974 http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/regio/brussel/1.2507974 written by a female politician of Moroccan descent.
laichzeit0 11y ago
Why are Muslims not taking to the streets in protest against these attacks in the same manner they do when people draw cartoon drawings of their prophet? This is a problem the Muslim community needs to solve.
- _delirium 11y ago
  There have been some anti-ISIS demonstrations, but they seem not to get much press: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-anti-isis-march-not-covered-by-mainstream-media-outlets-say-organisers-a6765976.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-anti-i... In Denmark, at the time of the cartoons controversy, there was also a group of Muslims on the other side, whose leader was elected to Parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Muslims_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Muslims_in_Denmark
- viraptor 11y ago
  They do. It's not that popular to show in the news, but it's there. Just google "muslim protests against terrorism" for many examples.
- oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
  Probably for much the same reasons that non-muslims aren't taking to the streets; ISIS are hardly likely to stop this campaign because of a protest march.
  - iofj 11y ago
    Muslims took to the streets yesterday. To prevent the arrest of the terrorist: http://www.brusselnieuws.be/nl/nieuws/jongeren-gooiden-stenen-naar-agenten-ambulance-en-pers http://www.brusselnieuws.be/nl/nieuws/jongeren-gooiden-stene... And then this happens. What are we supposed to think ?
    - rmxt 11y ago
      Clearly the best response to violent and fatal intolerance....is more kneejerk intolerance. Assuming all Muslims are ideologically the same, and that Muslims monolithically defend this sort of behavior is an asinine assumption.
crasp 11y ago
Not to mention that once again fear will be the great motivator to open up the debate about 'prohibiting encryption' and 'regulating bitcoin' and the likes. I believe we would be far better of to not acknowledge whatever 'terrorist' organisation or group might have been behind this by spouting out '<terrorist organisation X> has taken credit for the attacks in Brussels' in the media. Yet we all know this is what will happen. Also the religion aspect will be brought in again because the organisation acts because of their beliefs. Hate will be harvested on both ends. We could possibly lose a bit of freedom, sit out and wait for the next attack.
dracht 11y ago
It's grotesque to divert attention and create the narrative that the real tragedy here is not the ever-increasing number of victims of a sickening ideology, but the fact that the reaction to these events (as if fear and anger are inappropriate emotions to an attack) will drive people to a politician you oppose. If people voting for Trump makes you "just as sad" as people getting blown up, there is something seriously wrong with you.
- viraptor 11y ago
  US can go to war in many places for many reasons. Not always good or fully justified ones too. Some leaders are more likely to jump to such scenarios than others. So while it's comparison between one specific act and years of political decisions, I don't think there's got to be anything wrong with OP for such comparison. Electing a terrible leader of a powerful country can cause many more people getting blown up than we've heard of today.
  - dracht 11y ago
    If I said I'm worried about people voting for politicians that will facilitate the spread of islam in Europe, I'd get downvoted for it in this progressive echo chamber. The US has engaged in useless conflicts both with democratic and republican presidents at the helm. The notion that Trump could and would start deadly wars on his own accord is highly speculative, bordering on baseless propaganda, and moot at this point. I don't have a dog in the fight since I'm not from the US, but it's appalling how pervasive and slanderous the American left is (perhaps my perspective is skewed through the internet, maybe the American right has no significant online presence). People getting killed in Belgium is not a chance for you to inject some US presidential campaign bullshit.
    - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
      I might downvote you for that, yes - if you said you were worried that people voting for politicians would facilitate the spread of terrorism in Europe, that would be an entirely understandable point of view. The fear of Trump is based on what we've learned from history: charismatic leaders, sowing discord and tension, talking about building walls to separate and contain people, trying to rid a country of certain races and religions, have caused the utmost tragedy in recent times. Trump is the one injecting US presidential campaign bullshit into this issue, and that must be countered.

by abhi3 11y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

It will, and in fact that's probably the goal of the attacks. If Muslims feel unsafe in Europe, it supports ISIS's image of itself as an Islamic state that is a safe haven for Muslims (even if this is nonsense).

_delirium 11y ago
They've come pretty close [1] to saying that's their goal, to polarize European politics so that European Muslims must choose either Europe or Islam. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12002726/The-grey-zone-How-Isis-wants-to-divide-the-world-into-Muslims-and-crusaders.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/1200...
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

agumonkey 11y ago

It's getting harder and harder to calm people down.

jacquesm 11y ago
That's precisely the goal. The very best response to attacks like these would be to simply treat them as ordinary crimes but that's never going to fly in the current political climate. And so we escalate. The end-state of this is civil war, and if it keeps going for a while we'll have a re-run of the Yugoslavian wars without the added benefit of a nicely segregated population so that it can be stopped. The kind of language I hear around me from otherwise intelligent people is extremely worrying.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  I was a bit angry at the French (amongst other) government response toward the Paris attacks. Lack of wisdom and fluff sign of strength. And as you said, it giving them the credit they're asking for. We're here discussing on a website, what else can we do ? is the invisible flow of emotion flowing up to countries head too heavy ?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

i_feel_great 11y ago

Which is what the terrorists want by attacking civilians.

staticelf 11y ago

Honestly, I despise Donald Trump, but in the same time I am very anti-establishment because in my country we've taken in hundreds of thousands of immigrants for many years and we're only 9.x million citizens. I have sympathy with people who are angry, as I am, with the lack of good leadership from at least the leaders in my country, the lack of security and action is astonishing. I do not live in the US, but I can guess the people who vote for Trump feels kind of the same way I feel about the politicians in my country.

ramblerman 11y ago

Whilst I agree with you that a posse mentality is a dangerous thing, a PC agenda run amock is equally so. Abdeslam (the last terrorist from the france attacks) was arrested in Belgium 3 days ago and upon his removal from the area, youths gathered chanting his name and throwing bottles at the police combis. The national media chose not to cover this for the same reasons you laid out and it has caused a bit of a furore in Belgium. The distinction between racism and the fight against bad ideas (religious extremism) is often blurred by both the extreme right and the left.

norniron 11y ago
Source?
- ramblerman 11y ago
  - http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/32616/Terreurdreiging-in-Belgie/article/detail/2653240/2016/03/21/Bourgeois-Jammer-dat-journaal-flessengooiende-jongeren-in-Molenbeek-niet-uitzond.dhtml http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/32616/Terreurdreiging-in-Belgie/art... - http://www.brusselnieuws.be/nl/nieuws/jongeren-gooiden-stenen-naar-agenten-ambulance-en-pers http://www.brusselnieuws.be/nl/nieuws/jongeren-gooiden-stene... - http://www.demorgen.be/opinie/de-marokkaanse-gemeenschap-moet-stoppen-zich-te-wentelen-in-de-positie-van-underdog-bc6dcfbe/ http://www.demorgen.be/opinie/de-marokkaanse-gemeenschap-moe...
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
When you marginalise and stigmatise people, and give them no hope for the future, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them end up reacting like that.
- ramblerman 11y ago
  That argument is naive at best. These kids have smartphones, internet, and full access to state funded education to the university level. Yet we still have seen a large departure to Syria. There is a concerted effort to indoctrinate these youths, and criticism against anything islam is not allowing this debate to be held. See this article "Remove the Saudi influence from our mosques" http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/regio/brussel/1.2507974 http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/regio/brussel/1.2507974 written by a female politician of Moroccan descent.

laichzeit0 11y ago

Why are Muslims not taking to the streets in protest against these attacks in the same manner they do when people draw cartoon drawings of their prophet? This is a problem the Muslim community needs to solve.

_delirium 11y ago
There have been some anti-ISIS demonstrations, but they seem not to get much press: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-anti-isis-march-not-covered-by-mainstream-media-outlets-say-organisers-a6765976.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-anti-i... In Denmark, at the time of the cartoons controversy, there was also a group of Muslims on the other side, whose leader was elected to Parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Muslims_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Muslims_in_Denmark
viraptor 11y ago
They do. It's not that popular to show in the news, but it's there. Just google "muslim protests against terrorism" for many examples.
oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
Probably for much the same reasons that non-muslims aren't taking to the streets; ISIS are hardly likely to stop this campaign because of a protest march.
- iofj 11y ago
  Muslims took to the streets yesterday. To prevent the arrest of the terrorist: http://www.brusselnieuws.be/nl/nieuws/jongeren-gooiden-stenen-naar-agenten-ambulance-en-pers http://www.brusselnieuws.be/nl/nieuws/jongeren-gooiden-stene... And then this happens. What are we supposed to think ?
  - rmxt 11y ago
    Clearly the best response to violent and fatal intolerance....is more kneejerk intolerance. Assuming all Muslims are ideologically the same, and that Muslims monolithically defend this sort of behavior is an asinine assumption.

crasp 11y ago

Not to mention that once again fear will be the great motivator to open up the debate about 'prohibiting encryption' and 'regulating bitcoin' and the likes. I believe we would be far better of to not acknowledge whatever 'terrorist' organisation or group might have been behind this by spouting out '<terrorist organisation X> has taken credit for the attacks in Brussels' in the media. Yet we all know this is what will happen. Also the religion aspect will be brought in again because the organisation acts because of their beliefs. Hate will be harvested on both ends. We could possibly lose a bit of freedom, sit out and wait for the next attack.

dracht 11y ago

It's grotesque to divert attention and create the narrative that the real tragedy here is not the ever-increasing number of victims of a sickening ideology, but the fact that the reaction to these events (as if fear and anger are inappropriate emotions to an attack) will drive people to a politician you oppose. If people voting for Trump makes you "just as sad" as people getting blown up, there is something seriously wrong with you.

viraptor 11y ago
US can go to war in many places for many reasons. Not always good or fully justified ones too. Some leaders are more likely to jump to such scenarios than others. So while it's comparison between one specific act and years of political decisions, I don't think there's got to be anything wrong with OP for such comparison. Electing a terrible leader of a powerful country can cause many more people getting blown up than we've heard of today.
- dracht 11y ago
  If I said I'm worried about people voting for politicians that will facilitate the spread of islam in Europe, I'd get downvoted for it in this progressive echo chamber. The US has engaged in useless conflicts both with democratic and republican presidents at the helm. The notion that Trump could and would start deadly wars on his own accord is highly speculative, bordering on baseless propaganda, and moot at this point. I don't have a dog in the fight since I'm not from the US, but it's appalling how pervasive and slanderous the American left is (perhaps my perspective is skewed through the internet, maybe the American right has no significant online presence). People getting killed in Belgium is not a chance for you to inject some US presidential campaign bullshit.
  - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
    I might downvote you for that, yes - if you said you were worried that people voting for politicians would facilitate the spread of terrorism in Europe, that would be an entirely understandable point of view. The fear of Trump is based on what we've learned from history: charismatic leaders, sowing discord and tension, talking about building walls to separate and contain people, trying to rid a country of certain races and religions, have caused the utmost tragedy in recent times. Trump is the one injecting US presidential campaign bullshit into this issue, and that must be countered.