6 ms·

The thing I find interesting (INTERESTING, not necessarily moral or otherwise) about China is that when they want to do something controversial they are open a

The thing I find interesting (INTERESTING, not necessarily moral or otherwise) about China is that when they want to do something controversial they are open and straight forward about it. They openly attack and arrest groups that they find disruptive to the social order. In America, the leadership has to invent all sorts of crafty subterfuge to accomplish their goals of persecuting and imprisoning groups that they consider to be disruptive. It's getting to be that the crafty deceptions have become so deeply layered that the official ideology that's supposed to justify policy has become hopelessly confused and contradictory.

shmerl 11y ago
Why is that interesting that dictatorship doesn't hesitate to openly attack dissent? That's actually expected from it.
- narrator 11y ago
  Stalin was by all accounts a dictator, but he operated differently. When the NKVD secret police would arrest someone who had made a political joke that somebody heard and reported, they weren't sent to freeze to death in a gulag in Siberia for the joke. No, they were forced to confess under torture to all sorts of laundry lists of ridiculous accusations of sabotaging production and acting as a spy for foreign governments and being the ringleaders of vast insurgent organizations, etc. Meanwhile, in the constitution of the Soviet Union there are all kinds of rights and legal protections and such. Kind of funny statistic, but the U.S has more people incarcerated as a percentage of the population than the Soviet Union ever did. North Korea is a Stalinist state. They have elections and refer to themselves as a democratic people's republic. China does not have elections or refer to themselves as democratic. Also, China is much more straightforward in prosecuting descent. They just say that someone belongs to an illegal non-harmonious organization like Falun-Gong or whatever and that's illegal. Send them to prison. No fancy trumped up charges or subterfuge needed.
  - 13of40 11y ago
    > in the constitution of the Soviet Union there are all kinds of rights and legal protections and such > They just say that someone belongs to an illegal non-harmonious organization like Falun-Gong or whatever and that's illegal. It seems like governments are somewhat uniform in the laws they pass, but fundamentally fickle about which laws they choose to enforce. In my state, for example, it's a felony to be a member of a subversive organization... http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.81.030 http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.81.030 ...e.g., the Communist Party... http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.81.083 http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.81.083 ...but it would be unthinkable for them to actually prosecute anyone for it.
    - gardano 11y ago
      That's something I never understood (and admittedly never researched either). Isn't there something in the constitution about freedom of association?
      - hyperpape 11y ago
        Yes. However judges cannot preemptively strike down laws, even if they are blatantly unconstitutional. Someone with "standing" must bring a case, which typically(?) means that the law has been applied to them. So unconstitutional laws often stay on the books without being enforced, until either someone overreaches and tries to enforce them, or the legislature formally repeals them. I believe anti-miscegenation statues were on the books for decades in some states after the Supreme Court struck them down.
        spacemanmatt 11y ago
        That is a lot like the American system after you factor in wealth inequality, the cost of legal representation, and non-enforcement against the wealthy.
        redblacktree 11y ago
- kbenson 11y ago
  Because it's very easy for them to control the narrative and spin their actions to their benefit, minimizing the negative associations with their actions. That they aren't probably means they want it seen this way, and I agree that's interesting.
- grecy 11y ago
  You missed the point entirely. The interesting part isn't how China behaves, it's that the US - supposedly on a higher level than China - behaves much the same way, it just tries really hard to cover it up.
deleted 11y ago
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Terr_ 11y ago
> The thing I find interesting (INTERESTING, not necessarily moral or otherwise) about China is that when they want to do something controversial they are open and straight forward about it. Not necessarily, or they wouldn't need to coerce apologetic confessions: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21689620-what-current-vogue-televised-confessions-and-apologies-says-about-xi-jinpings-china http://www.economist.com/news/china/21689620-what-current-vo...
- hawkice 11y ago
  So, it turns out this is a fairly clever (remember kids: clever doesn't mean good) of discrediting people who want to be seen as either conscientious objectors or principled. Make them go back on their word, often in public. But the videos of apologies and such that get released are really just the tip of the sword. Their interrogation techniques have been known to be extremely brutal right up until the moment you apologize -- even if it's just two people in a room with cameras off -- because the Chinese government wants it that way. They want the rules to be extremely well known. Everyone knows you get beat till you go back on your "disruptive" ideals. Sometimes they permanently cripple people or put them in a coma. 99% of the time, though, they release them. That way, everyone knows, when they see that the dissident is basically fine, that they betrayed their own beliefs, even if it was in private, even if no one saw. Completely irrelevant aside: it's stuff like this that comes to mind when people talk about how dysfunctional the American government is. The Chinese government can have complex policies with parts that a lot of people find uncomfortable or wrong, and still have the whole system the way that will be most effective instead of most comfortable -- their astounding urbanization and rise in not just wealth but advanced skills and it's relation to the hukou system is a good example -- but when you have unchecked power... this is another consequence.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Aelinsaar 11y ago
You shouldn't assume that they don't also engage in a truly staggering amount of covert violence.
agumonkey 11y ago
I find this a very descriptive trait of the western world. We rationalize, and diffuse through indirect means and ways. It feels a lot less barbaric than just cutting someone's hand for a bad article or what you said. The root desires are the same, the way to express them not.

shmerl 11y ago

Why is that interesting that dictatorship doesn't hesitate to openly attack dissent? That's actually expected from it.

narrator 11y ago
Stalin was by all accounts a dictator, but he operated differently. When the NKVD secret police would arrest someone who had made a political joke that somebody heard and reported, they weren't sent to freeze to death in a gulag in Siberia for the joke. No, they were forced to confess under torture to all sorts of laundry lists of ridiculous accusations of sabotaging production and acting as a spy for foreign governments and being the ringleaders of vast insurgent organizations, etc. Meanwhile, in the constitution of the Soviet Union there are all kinds of rights and legal protections and such. Kind of funny statistic, but the U.S has more people incarcerated as a percentage of the population than the Soviet Union ever did. North Korea is a Stalinist state. They have elections and refer to themselves as a democratic people's republic. China does not have elections or refer to themselves as democratic. Also, China is much more straightforward in prosecuting descent. They just say that someone belongs to an illegal non-harmonious organization like Falun-Gong or whatever and that's illegal. Send them to prison. No fancy trumped up charges or subterfuge needed.
- 13of40 11y ago
  > in the constitution of the Soviet Union there are all kinds of rights and legal protections and such > They just say that someone belongs to an illegal non-harmonious organization like Falun-Gong or whatever and that's illegal. It seems like governments are somewhat uniform in the laws they pass, but fundamentally fickle about which laws they choose to enforce. In my state, for example, it's a felony to be a member of a subversive organization... http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.81.030 http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.81.030 ...e.g., the Communist Party... http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.81.083 http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.81.083 ...but it would be unthinkable for them to actually prosecute anyone for it.
  - gardano 11y ago
    That's something I never understood (and admittedly never researched either). Isn't there something in the constitution about freedom of association?
    - hyperpape 11y ago
      Yes. However judges cannot preemptively strike down laws, even if they are blatantly unconstitutional. Someone with "standing" must bring a case, which typically(?) means that the law has been applied to them. So unconstitutional laws often stay on the books without being enforced, until either someone overreaches and tries to enforce them, or the legislature formally repeals them. I believe anti-miscegenation statues were on the books for decades in some states after the Supreme Court struck them down.
      - spacemanmatt 11y ago
        That is a lot like the American system after you factor in wealth inequality, the cost of legal representation, and non-enforcement against the wealthy.
        redblacktree 11y ago
kbenson 11y ago
Because it's very easy for them to control the narrative and spin their actions to their benefit, minimizing the negative associations with their actions. That they aren't probably means they want it seen this way, and I agree that's interesting.
grecy 11y ago
You missed the point entirely. The interesting part isn't how China behaves, it's that the US - supposedly on a higher level than China - behaves much the same way, it just tries really hard to cover it up.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Terr_ 11y ago

> The thing I find interesting (INTERESTING, not necessarily moral or otherwise) about China is that when they want to do something controversial they are open and straight forward about it. Not necessarily, or they wouldn't need to coerce apologetic confessions: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21689620-what-current-vogue-televised-confessions-and-apologies-says-about-xi-jinpings-china http://www.economist.com/news/china/21689620-what-current-vo...

hawkice 11y ago
So, it turns out this is a fairly clever (remember kids: clever doesn't mean good) of discrediting people who want to be seen as either conscientious objectors or principled. Make them go back on their word, often in public. But the videos of apologies and such that get released are really just the tip of the sword. Their interrogation techniques have been known to be extremely brutal right up until the moment you apologize -- even if it's just two people in a room with cameras off -- because the Chinese government wants it that way. They want the rules to be extremely well known. Everyone knows you get beat till you go back on your "disruptive" ideals. Sometimes they permanently cripple people or put them in a coma. 99% of the time, though, they release them. That way, everyone knows, when they see that the dissident is basically fine, that they betrayed their own beliefs, even if it was in private, even if no one saw. Completely irrelevant aside: it's stuff like this that comes to mind when people talk about how dysfunctional the American government is. The Chinese government can have complex policies with parts that a lot of people find uncomfortable or wrong, and still have the whole system the way that will be most effective instead of most comfortable -- their astounding urbanization and rise in not just wealth but advanced skills and it's relation to the hukou system is a good example -- but when you have unchecked power... this is another consequence.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Aelinsaar 11y ago

You shouldn't assume that they don't also engage in a truly staggering amount of covert violence.

agumonkey 11y ago

I find this a very descriptive trait of the western world. We rationalize, and diffuse through indirect means and ways. It feels a lot less barbaric than just cutting someone's hand for a bad article or what you said. The root desires are the same, the way to express them not.