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I am shocked by Apple's lack of commitment to making an actual productivity oriented computer in the form factor of a tablet. The iPad Pro is likely a reaction

I am shocked by Apple's lack of commitment to making an actual productivity oriented computer in the form factor of a tablet. The iPad Pro is likely a reaction to the success of the Microsoft Surface-- but the reaction is not much more than a name change and split screen. The Surface on the other hand actually is a productivity machine. Why isn't Apple diving fully into this area?

mythz 11y ago
What success? iPad destroyed Surface sales by an order of magnitude last quarter 16.1M to 1.6M. Even the iPad Pro alone outsold all MS Surface products despite only being introduced midway through the holiday quarter.
- randyrand 11y ago
  Bad comparison IMO. The tablet market is distinct from the productivity tablet market. What percentage of those ipad are replacing laptops?
  - Elessar 11y ago
    It's not a bad comparison. The question is why is Apple not diving into a "productivity machine" like the Surface. The answer is that the iPad Pro is selling better than the Surface. That is: Apple isn't building the Surface because they built something that sells better.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    Who's talking about laptops? OP brought up that the iPad Pro is a reaction to the Surface, then the reply said that the Pro destroyed the Surface in sales. This has nothing to do with laptops, even if the sales on productivity tablets are pathetic, the Pro still seems to be winning those pathetic sales.
  - mythz 11y ago
    > What percentage of those ipad are replacing laptops? Think about what you're saying, why would replacing laptops be a priority for Apple if they can outsell hybrids 10 to 1 by focusing on making a great consumption device? Apple and Google are focused on the mobile computing platform of the future which already outsells pcs with the gap widening every year. Instead Apple uses their OSX product lines to compete in the pc market.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  According to IDC: > We believe Apple sold just over two million iPad Pros while Microsoft sold around 1.6 million Surface devices So 2m Vs. 1.6m, the remaining 14.1m devices are an entirely different class at an entirely different price-point. The iPad Pro did outsell the Surface line in one quarter, but it is worth noting that the Surface Pro 4 was a minor upgrade, whereas the iPad Pro was a brand new class of device for Apple. Where Microsoft has been making in-roads with the Surface Pro line in particular is corporate/enterprise ultrabooks. The iPad, even the "Pro" doesn't have an answer to that.
  - mythz 11y ago
    This is some warped stats findings. You want to divide iPad sales because it's in a different class yet compare them with all Surface tablets and Hybrids combined but still elect not to include MacBooks in this separate class. Apparently iPad Pro and iPads are in a different price point but the current Surface product lines: Surface 3, Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book which are nearly doubled in cost respectively, are not. Then apparently an iPad with a larger screen is a brand new "entirely different" class, but Surface Tablet and Surface Books are not. Then you go on about the launch quarter like it's the only reason why iPad Pro outsold all Surfaces, but both iPhone and iPads go on to outsell their launch quarters in the next year - this is what you get when you grow sales. I'm surprised you didn't top it off by saying that Apple deliberately withheld introducing the iPad Pro to midway through the quarter so they could sell more units in that quarter.
  - ultramancool 11y ago
    People buy the Surface to run the desktop Windows apps though - which is something Apple can't offer. If we were talking Surface RT exclusively it'd be different...
    - niels_olson 11y ago
      Drop your favorite Windows version into VirtualBox on your macbook.
- WayneBro 11y ago
  Have all iOS tablets outsold all Windows tablets though, or just the one brand (Surface)?
Joeri 11y ago
Microsoft had to go through an extremely painful and still incomplete transition to make windows suitable for tablets. If apple tries to make a mac tablet then it will be a horrible experience. They can't fix the fact that mac apps are designed for mouse/trackpad interaction and dense UI, not pen/finger and big targets. And as for making an iOS tablet that's more suitable for productivity, the iPad Pro is that device, and basically as good as it gets.
- deong 11y ago
  I think the current view that iOS takes of file management takes it out of the realm of "good productivity device", full stop. The hardware is there. The software isn't particularly close yet, in my opinion.
  - dkonofalski 11y ago
    I never understood this. Who wants to mess around with the file system? 95% of users probably don't care where or how the OS is storing your data. They only care that they can access it when they want to access it. The only people that care to have that granular control over the file system are the people that want full control over the device too and those are not the demographic for iOS. iOS is all about making it simpler for people to do the things they want to do. Manually managing a file system is the opposite of simple.
    - JoBrad 11y ago
      Because the convoluted process of getting Application B to work with an item created/edited by Application A is incredibly tedious in the iOS model. In my opinion, while it works well in single-app circumstances, iOS' model is completely backward, from a user standpoint. An app is simply a tool that allows me to accomplish some goal. So it's not that I want to mess with the file system as much as I want to work with some file, and the app-centric model robs you of a lot of productivity when trying to accomplish this - especially if you ever need to switch back and forth between apps to work on a single file.
mmanfrin 11y ago
(Complete conjecture) I think it's because it's in their best interests to not have that form factor be a 'thing'. Apple wants to sell you a macbook and an iPad, not a single Padbook. If they don't enter that arena, then they force Microsoft to do all the work to get the market there (if at all), when they can come up with a me-too form factor device without any real lost headway.
- kayoone 11y ago
  If anything, Apple wants the iPad Pros to replace Laptops for most people. They clearly are hardly interested in Macs and power users anymore as most upgrades go without an Event and mac sales are a minor factor in their gigantic revenue.
seanp2k2 11y ago
Because it doesn't make sense to get any "real" work done on a tablet OS / touchscreen for many people. They have the MacBook if you want a small productivity machine.
Zoon 11y ago
To be fair it is a great productivity computer for all fields other than IT.
- nkw 11y ago
  I disagree. I work in a law office. Almost everyone is issued a laptop, desktop, and, if they want, an iPad. iPad is fine for reading documents or e-mail, but awful for actually creating anything. Our office has found the keyboard is terrible, cut and paste is a pain, and people prefer a real filesystem. Nobody in our office does any real work (i.e. writing) with the iPad except reviewing documents while sitting in court or an airplane seat. Everybody I know just treats it like a giant phone.
  - derefr 11y ago
    Has anyone in your office tried using an iPad with a bluetooth keyboard? In my experience, it's far less painful. There's a reason Apple Stores carry these[1]: it's just one more (light) bit of padded plastic to drop in your bag, and then you can work on the plane and so on. (If you're at home, I'd recommend using an actual Magic Keyboard if you've got one, but those aren't quite as convenient in portability terms.) [1] http://support.logitech.com/en_ca/product/keys-to-go-ipad http://support.logitech.com/en_ca/product/keys-to-go-ipad
    - nkw 11y ago
      I (and others in the office) have. You are right that a bluetooth keyboard does pretty much solve the typing issue, and using the actual Magic Keyboard over the floppy iPad-specific keyboards gets it significantly closer to the feeling people are accustomed to. Definitely necessary if you are going to be working on a document (or replying to an e-mail with more than a sentence), but for myself there was still a huge productivity barrier by having to go from the keyboard to screen for mouse actions (scrolling, selecting text, hitting a button). The keyboard/trackpad combination allows both typing and mouse actions with minimal movement on the same plane. It sounds a bit lazy or silly, but I found having to pick one's hand up and poke something on the screen was pretty disruptive.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Maarten88 11y ago
> Why isn't Apple diving fully into this area? Because it is very hard? It cost Microsoft a disastrous version of Windows and lots of pushback by customers before they got their productivity OS working both on a tablet and desktop.
parasubvert 11y ago
Surface has not been much of a success: http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10858474/microsoft-earnings-report-q2-2016 http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10858474/microsoft-earning... http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/22/9599674/microsoft-q1-2016-earnings http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/22/9599674/microsoft-q1-2016... Apple fundamentally doesn't believe in a hybrid laptop/tablet "productivity" machine (for good reason, debatably). The iPad Pro is an attempt to bring iOS into the realm of productivity, rather than merging the experiences of iOS and Mac OS X.
- derefr 11y ago
  Or, to put it another way: the iPad Pro is a device that takes the productivity apps already written for iOS, and enhances them by giving them more of what they need (screen real-estate, fine 2D input control, GPU power, etc.) The Surface series, meanwhile, creates a new platform; new apps (or at least new major versions of apps) have to be written to truly take advantage of it.
  - jrockway 11y ago
    Not true, as far as I can tell. I use mine for the usual tasks (ssh, Chrome) and photo editing (Lightroom and Photoshop). Chrome, Lightroom, and Photoshop are the exact same versions I have on my desktop, and work perfectly on the Surface, including understanding touch and the pen. It's great. Nice screen too. The iPad has potential, but Lightroom for the iPad is crap. You can connect an SD card with RAW files on it to the iPad... but Lightroom can't read them. Won't even show you a preview (even though Apple's built-in app can). Not good. The iPad Pro is a way better device on paper than the Surface. But being able to run every Windows program ever is better than being able to maybe get a stripped-down version of the software you're used to. I imagine sales numbers between iPad Pro and Surface Pro 4 are orders of magnitude in favor of the iPad for two reasons. One, the Surface Pro 4 competes with every Windows laptop ever -- there are many cheaper ways to get all your favorite Windows programs "on the go". Two, I bet a lot of people bought the iPad Pro imagining things like Lightroom would be useful, discovered they aren't, and put the iPad in the drawer two weeks after buying it. I loved my iPad for the first two weeks after I bought it. Now I don't know where it is. Dead in a drawer somewhere, no doubt.
rayiner 11y ago
A fiddly add-on keyboard is never going to make for a good productivity experience. I'd rather use a proper laptop with mittens than try and get anything done on a Surface that isn't the Surface Book. What's the point of making an OS X machine in tablet form factor when a MacBook is almost as thin and light and has a real keyboard and touchpad?
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  > A fiddly add-on keyboard is never going to make for a good productivity experience. I would suggesting trying a "fiddly add-on keyboard" first before saying that :). Maybe the iPad Pro's keyboard is like that and I certainly thought that about the surface pro 4 until I decided to spend some time playing with it. Coming from only Macs for the past 6 years I gave in and bought a surface pro 4. Then I did the launch hackathon with it where I coded for 48 straight hours. It's a FANTASTIC productivity device. Granted it may not be the best fit for everyone but I wouldn't cast absolute doubt on it without spending some time playing with it. > What's the point of making an OS X machine in tablet form factor I don't think anyone specifically said it had to be OS X but it would be nice to have a touch screen and have access to iOS apps at the same time at you have access to "real" apps to get work done. I had an iPad before giving it to one of my kids because I couldn't do very much on it productivity wise. As a programmer who doesn't work on games: 99% of my code could run, without issue, on an iPhone 4's processor. I wanted something portable that I could read with, play casual games on but also get real work done. iOS just can't do that for many professions.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    My dad uses a Surface 2 as his primary computer. Using the TypeCover drives me up the wall. The newer ones on the Surface Pro 4 don't seem much better. It might work in a pinch, but I don't understand why you'd actually prefer to use it over something with a real keyboard.
    - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
      I wouldn't say it's preferable to a real keyboard but as far as foldable, portable keyboards go I'd say it's the best (especially since it's USB and not bluetooth based; bluetooth are just too prone to interference, repeating character issues, etc (at least I've yet to use a good one)). It's a pretty good compromise, in my opinion, for someone looking for a full fledge computer that can also have the portability and usability of a tablet.
ebbv 11y ago
This is the most delusional response I've ever seen. The Surface is not a success by any measure.
dangoor 11y ago
The iPad Pro is a continued drive toward what the iPad has always been intended to be. It's a touch-centric computer that does away with some of the old interaction patterns and problems of the past (creating new problems all its own ;) Apple is making the bet that people want to use apps that are all designed with touch interfaces in mind and that people prefer a simpler computing model. Microsoft is betting that backwards compatibility is more important.
- Someone 11y ago
  Also notice that this is a repeat of Mac OS vs Windows in the early '90s. Then, part of the reason that true Windows GUI programs replaced DOS as fast as they did, and we didn't have a period of "Windows as a way to show multiple DOS Windows" was that people (Microsoft being an important one) had to learn GUI programming to support the Mac.
melling 11y ago
It's not a reaction to the Surface. That probably explains why it doesn't do what a Surface does. Considering that a Surface can replace a desktop PC, it should sell in the tens of millions annually. It might take another revision or two but this will soon happen.

mythz 11y ago

What success? iPad destroyed Surface sales by an order of magnitude last quarter 16.1M to 1.6M. Even the iPad Pro alone outsold all MS Surface products despite only being introduced midway through the holiday quarter.

randyrand 11y ago
Bad comparison IMO. The tablet market is distinct from the productivity tablet market. What percentage of those ipad are replacing laptops?
- Elessar 11y ago
  It's not a bad comparison. The question is why is Apple not diving into a "productivity machine" like the Surface. The answer is that the iPad Pro is selling better than the Surface. That is: Apple isn't building the Surface because they built something that sells better.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Who's talking about laptops? OP brought up that the iPad Pro is a reaction to the Surface, then the reply said that the Pro destroyed the Surface in sales. This has nothing to do with laptops, even if the sales on productivity tablets are pathetic, the Pro still seems to be winning those pathetic sales.
- mythz 11y ago
  > What percentage of those ipad are replacing laptops? Think about what you're saying, why would replacing laptops be a priority for Apple if they can outsell hybrids 10 to 1 by focusing on making a great consumption device? Apple and Google are focused on the mobile computing platform of the future which already outsells pcs with the gap widening every year. Instead Apple uses their OSX product lines to compete in the pc market.
Someone1234 11y ago
According to IDC: > We believe Apple sold just over two million iPad Pros while Microsoft sold around 1.6 million Surface devices So 2m Vs. 1.6m, the remaining 14.1m devices are an entirely different class at an entirely different price-point. The iPad Pro did outsell the Surface line in one quarter, but it is worth noting that the Surface Pro 4 was a minor upgrade, whereas the iPad Pro was a brand new class of device for Apple. Where Microsoft has been making in-roads with the Surface Pro line in particular is corporate/enterprise ultrabooks. The iPad, even the "Pro" doesn't have an answer to that.
- mythz 11y ago
  This is some warped stats findings. You want to divide iPad sales because it's in a different class yet compare them with all Surface tablets and Hybrids combined but still elect not to include MacBooks in this separate class. Apparently iPad Pro and iPads are in a different price point but the current Surface product lines: Surface 3, Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book which are nearly doubled in cost respectively, are not. Then apparently an iPad with a larger screen is a brand new "entirely different" class, but Surface Tablet and Surface Books are not. Then you go on about the launch quarter like it's the only reason why iPad Pro outsold all Surfaces, but both iPhone and iPads go on to outsell their launch quarters in the next year - this is what you get when you grow sales. I'm surprised you didn't top it off by saying that Apple deliberately withheld introducing the iPad Pro to midway through the quarter so they could sell more units in that quarter.
- ultramancool 11y ago
  People buy the Surface to run the desktop Windows apps though - which is something Apple can't offer. If we were talking Surface RT exclusively it'd be different...
  - niels_olson 11y ago
    Drop your favorite Windows version into VirtualBox on your macbook.
WayneBro 11y ago
Have all iOS tablets outsold all Windows tablets though, or just the one brand (Surface)?

Joeri 11y ago

Microsoft had to go through an extremely painful and still incomplete transition to make windows suitable for tablets. If apple tries to make a mac tablet then it will be a horrible experience. They can't fix the fact that mac apps are designed for mouse/trackpad interaction and dense UI, not pen/finger and big targets. And as for making an iOS tablet that's more suitable for productivity, the iPad Pro is that device, and basically as good as it gets.

deong 11y ago
I think the current view that iOS takes of file management takes it out of the realm of "good productivity device", full stop. The hardware is there. The software isn't particularly close yet, in my opinion.
- dkonofalski 11y ago
  I never understood this. Who wants to mess around with the file system? 95% of users probably don't care where or how the OS is storing your data. They only care that they can access it when they want to access it. The only people that care to have that granular control over the file system are the people that want full control over the device too and those are not the demographic for iOS. iOS is all about making it simpler for people to do the things they want to do. Manually managing a file system is the opposite of simple.
  - JoBrad 11y ago
    Because the convoluted process of getting Application B to work with an item created/edited by Application A is incredibly tedious in the iOS model. In my opinion, while it works well in single-app circumstances, iOS' model is completely backward, from a user standpoint. An app is simply a tool that allows me to accomplish some goal. So it's not that I want to mess with the file system as much as I want to work with some file, and the app-centric model robs you of a lot of productivity when trying to accomplish this - especially if you ever need to switch back and forth between apps to work on a single file.

mmanfrin 11y ago

(Complete conjecture) I think it's because it's in their best interests to not have that form factor be a 'thing'. Apple wants to sell you a macbook and an iPad, not a single Padbook. If they don't enter that arena, then they force Microsoft to do all the work to get the market there (if at all), when they can come up with a me-too form factor device without any real lost headway.

kayoone 11y ago
If anything, Apple wants the iPad Pros to replace Laptops for most people. They clearly are hardly interested in Macs and power users anymore as most upgrades go without an Event and mac sales are a minor factor in their gigantic revenue.

seanp2k2 11y ago

Because it doesn't make sense to get any "real" work done on a tablet OS / touchscreen for many people. They have the MacBook if you want a small productivity machine.

Zoon 11y ago

To be fair it is a great productivity computer for all fields other than IT.

nkw 11y ago
I disagree. I work in a law office. Almost everyone is issued a laptop, desktop, and, if they want, an iPad. iPad is fine for reading documents or e-mail, but awful for actually creating anything. Our office has found the keyboard is terrible, cut and paste is a pain, and people prefer a real filesystem. Nobody in our office does any real work (i.e. writing) with the iPad except reviewing documents while sitting in court or an airplane seat. Everybody I know just treats it like a giant phone.
- derefr 11y ago
  Has anyone in your office tried using an iPad with a bluetooth keyboard? In my experience, it's far less painful. There's a reason Apple Stores carry these[1]: it's just one more (light) bit of padded plastic to drop in your bag, and then you can work on the plane and so on. (If you're at home, I'd recommend using an actual Magic Keyboard if you've got one, but those aren't quite as convenient in portability terms.) [1] http://support.logitech.com/en_ca/product/keys-to-go-ipad http://support.logitech.com/en_ca/product/keys-to-go-ipad
  - nkw 11y ago
    I (and others in the office) have. You are right that a bluetooth keyboard does pretty much solve the typing issue, and using the actual Magic Keyboard over the floppy iPad-specific keyboards gets it significantly closer to the feeling people are accustomed to. Definitely necessary if you are going to be working on a document (or replying to an e-mail with more than a sentence), but for myself there was still a huge productivity barrier by having to go from the keyboard to screen for mouse actions (scrolling, selecting text, hitting a button). The keyboard/trackpad combination allows both typing and mouse actions with minimal movement on the same plane. It sounds a bit lazy or silly, but I found having to pick one's hand up and poke something on the screen was pretty disruptive.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Maarten88 11y ago

> Why isn't Apple diving fully into this area? Because it is very hard? It cost Microsoft a disastrous version of Windows and lots of pushback by customers before they got their productivity OS working both on a tablet and desktop.

parasubvert 11y ago

Surface has not been much of a success: http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10858474/microsoft-earnings-report-q2-2016 http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/28/10858474/microsoft-earning... http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/22/9599674/microsoft-q1-2016-earnings http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/22/9599674/microsoft-q1-2016... Apple fundamentally doesn't believe in a hybrid laptop/tablet "productivity" machine (for good reason, debatably). The iPad Pro is an attempt to bring iOS into the realm of productivity, rather than merging the experiences of iOS and Mac OS X.

derefr 11y ago
Or, to put it another way: the iPad Pro is a device that takes the productivity apps already written for iOS, and enhances them by giving them more of what they need (screen real-estate, fine 2D input control, GPU power, etc.) The Surface series, meanwhile, creates a new platform; new apps (or at least new major versions of apps) have to be written to truly take advantage of it.
- jrockway 11y ago
  Not true, as far as I can tell. I use mine for the usual tasks (ssh, Chrome) and photo editing (Lightroom and Photoshop). Chrome, Lightroom, and Photoshop are the exact same versions I have on my desktop, and work perfectly on the Surface, including understanding touch and the pen. It's great. Nice screen too. The iPad has potential, but Lightroom for the iPad is crap. You can connect an SD card with RAW files on it to the iPad... but Lightroom can't read them. Won't even show you a preview (even though Apple's built-in app can). Not good. The iPad Pro is a way better device on paper than the Surface. But being able to run every Windows program ever is better than being able to maybe get a stripped-down version of the software you're used to. I imagine sales numbers between iPad Pro and Surface Pro 4 are orders of magnitude in favor of the iPad for two reasons. One, the Surface Pro 4 competes with every Windows laptop ever -- there are many cheaper ways to get all your favorite Windows programs "on the go". Two, I bet a lot of people bought the iPad Pro imagining things like Lightroom would be useful, discovered they aren't, and put the iPad in the drawer two weeks after buying it. I loved my iPad for the first two weeks after I bought it. Now I don't know where it is. Dead in a drawer somewhere, no doubt.

rayiner 11y ago

A fiddly add-on keyboard is never going to make for a good productivity experience. I'd rather use a proper laptop with mittens than try and get anything done on a Surface that isn't the Surface Book. What's the point of making an OS X machine in tablet form factor when a MacBook is almost as thin and light and has a real keyboard and touchpad?

BinaryIdiot 11y ago
> A fiddly add-on keyboard is never going to make for a good productivity experience. I would suggesting trying a "fiddly add-on keyboard" first before saying that :). Maybe the iPad Pro's keyboard is like that and I certainly thought that about the surface pro 4 until I decided to spend some time playing with it. Coming from only Macs for the past 6 years I gave in and bought a surface pro 4. Then I did the launch hackathon with it where I coded for 48 straight hours. It's a FANTASTIC productivity device. Granted it may not be the best fit for everyone but I wouldn't cast absolute doubt on it without spending some time playing with it. > What's the point of making an OS X machine in tablet form factor I don't think anyone specifically said it had to be OS X but it would be nice to have a touch screen and have access to iOS apps at the same time at you have access to "real" apps to get work done. I had an iPad before giving it to one of my kids because I couldn't do very much on it productivity wise. As a programmer who doesn't work on games: 99% of my code could run, without issue, on an iPhone 4's processor. I wanted something portable that I could read with, play casual games on but also get real work done. iOS just can't do that for many professions.
- rayiner 11y ago
  My dad uses a Surface 2 as his primary computer. Using the TypeCover drives me up the wall. The newer ones on the Surface Pro 4 don't seem much better. It might work in a pinch, but I don't understand why you'd actually prefer to use it over something with a real keyboard.
  - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
    I wouldn't say it's preferable to a real keyboard but as far as foldable, portable keyboards go I'd say it's the best (especially since it's USB and not bluetooth based; bluetooth are just too prone to interference, repeating character issues, etc (at least I've yet to use a good one)). It's a pretty good compromise, in my opinion, for someone looking for a full fledge computer that can also have the portability and usability of a tablet.

ebbv 11y ago

This is the most delusional response I've ever seen. The Surface is not a success by any measure.

dangoor 11y ago

The iPad Pro is a continued drive toward what the iPad has always been intended to be. It's a touch-centric computer that does away with some of the old interaction patterns and problems of the past (creating new problems all its own ;) Apple is making the bet that people want to use apps that are all designed with touch interfaces in mind and that people prefer a simpler computing model. Microsoft is betting that backwards compatibility is more important.

Someone 11y ago
Also notice that this is a repeat of Mac OS vs Windows in the early '90s. Then, part of the reason that true Windows GUI programs replaced DOS as fast as they did, and we didn't have a period of "Windows as a way to show multiple DOS Windows" was that people (Microsoft being an important one) had to learn GUI programming to support the Mac.

melling 11y ago

It's not a reaction to the Surface. That probably explains why it doesn't do what a Surface does. Considering that a Surface can replace a desktop PC, it should sell in the tens of millions annually. It might take another revision or two but this will soon happen.