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A good conversation of "why we should fear a cashless world" should at least mention the Book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel in The Bible. It would be neg

by Olscore 11y ago

A good conversation of "why we should fear a cashless world" should at least mention the Book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel in The Bible. It would be negligent to omit them from discussion like this.

blowski 11y ago
I assume that you're referring to Revelation 13:17: > And [the Beast] causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. Like most of Revelations, I think this needs to be interpreted in the context that it was written. Jews during the time of Nero saw Nero as the "the Beast". From what I understand, these "marks on the hand" were a plan by the Romans to control Jewish citizens in much the same way that modern governments try to control slum populations. I doubt the author foresaw contactless credit cards and Apple pay, though I admit that the authors of both the article and of Revelations were worried about similar consequences.
- theandrewbailey 11y ago
  > to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark How else would you describe 21st century RFID using 1st century vocabulary? Revelation was written 2,000 years ago, and is supposed to be about things in its future, after all.
  - blowski 11y ago
    > How else would you describe 21st century RFID using 1st century vocabulary? Why did it need to use 1st Century vocabulary? I am a practising Christian, and in my heart, I suspect Jesus would say something like "don't worry about how you pay for physical stuff".
    - theandrewbailey 11y ago
      It used 1st century vocabulary because that's all that could be had when it was written (about AD 90, Greece), using a different language, culture, context, and mindset than anything that exists today. If one were to update it, it would be impossible without fundamentally changing it, due to subjectiveness and the gulf in descriptions.
  - mdpopescu 11y ago
    There are Christians, like myself, that do not believe that Revelation is about the future. Look up "preterism".
jontayesp 11y ago
As a Christian, I hold a mostly preterist view on those prophecies (they already took place): "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." - Jesus
Olscore 11y ago
Friends who are replying, my intent is not to stir up debate between Christians or about religion. The Books mentioned are relevant to this topic. They are good reading for anyone interested. Based on the down votes it seems HN would rather not include them while discussing this topic; which is all the more reason to go read them for yourself. They remain significant in our modern culture, e.g., music, books, movies and the lives of billions of people (worldwide.) While 1984 and many other dystopian novels are good for thought experiments... These Books are relevant both historically and today.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  We generally like to talk about fact and science, and not old spiritualism. Though I have to admit, prophecy remains very popular here! But mostly with HNers taking the role of prophet.
MisterBastahrd 11y ago
A good conversation about a real world subject would ignore allegorical political writing from 2000 years ago posing as mythology because it isn't relevant or insightful.
- Olscore 11y ago
  Cashless societies are advanced as a solution to problems of moral decay. E.g., doing business under the table, not reporting taxes due to governments, or performing an illicit transaction. In many ways, advocacy of a cashless society is admittance that people are dishonest, and therefore all transactions should be made electronic. Instead of strengthening individual morality, workaround solutions are proposed -- like those trying to fix a morally bankrupt society via algorithmic systems that require no morality whatsoever. So whether it be a government sponsored currency, perhaps a world currency, to stop bad behavior and bad actors; or a public blockchain (Anarcho-capitalism). We as a society are now faced with a moral decision centered around privacy and how much of it should be entrusted to governments. Notice how the thesis of cryptocurrencies is trust-less systems, because people / governments are assumed to be nefarious by default. That is a big nuance being ignored. Ultimately (IMO) this is an issue of morality. One which benefits from reading history, analogy, literary examples or anything for that matter. We are seeing a tug of war between citizenry and governments in the financial and cryptographic realms. This is relevant. The financial system and notions of a cashless society foster a growing anti-government sentiment. It is obvious in this and other threads; a strong pushback against government, which all relate back to the Books mentioned. It is difficult to ignore the religious or moral contexts of this topic. Especially peculiar when Bitcoin has already established a cult following, complete with a pseudo-church which evangelizes. Not to mention it was created by a supposedly anti-government (Satoshi) person "yet to be revealed". Is playful conjecture not fair discussion? You can clearly see companies are racing to research cryptocurrencies, artificial intelligence, and what same may argue as anti-government measures. So, I think a real world subject -- is subject -- to everything of the real world. Like the written Words of The Bible and anything else that exists for good interpretation. When 2+ Billion people identify as Christian, and they (potentially) push back against cashless societies, it will become exceptionally relevant.

by Olscore 11y ago

blowski 11y ago

I assume that you're referring to Revelation 13:17: > And [the Beast] causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. Like most of Revelations, I think this needs to be interpreted in the context that it was written. Jews during the time of Nero saw Nero as the "the Beast". From what I understand, these "marks on the hand" were a plan by the Romans to control Jewish citizens in much the same way that modern governments try to control slum populations. I doubt the author foresaw contactless credit cards and Apple pay, though I admit that the authors of both the article and of Revelations were worried about similar consequences.

theandrewbailey 11y ago
> to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark How else would you describe 21st century RFID using 1st century vocabulary? Revelation was written 2,000 years ago, and is supposed to be about things in its future, after all.
- blowski 11y ago
  > How else would you describe 21st century RFID using 1st century vocabulary? Why did it need to use 1st Century vocabulary? I am a practising Christian, and in my heart, I suspect Jesus would say something like "don't worry about how you pay for physical stuff".
  - theandrewbailey 11y ago
    It used 1st century vocabulary because that's all that could be had when it was written (about AD 90, Greece), using a different language, culture, context, and mindset than anything that exists today. If one were to update it, it would be impossible without fundamentally changing it, due to subjectiveness and the gulf in descriptions.
- mdpopescu 11y ago
  There are Christians, like myself, that do not believe that Revelation is about the future. Look up "preterism".

jontayesp 11y ago

As a Christian, I hold a mostly preterist view on those prophecies (they already took place): "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." - Jesus

Olscore 11y ago

Friends who are replying, my intent is not to stir up debate between Christians or about religion. The Books mentioned are relevant to this topic. They are good reading for anyone interested. Based on the down votes it seems HN would rather not include them while discussing this topic; which is all the more reason to go read them for yourself. They remain significant in our modern culture, e.g., music, books, movies and the lives of billions of people (worldwide.) While 1984 and many other dystopian novels are good for thought experiments... These Books are relevant both historically and today.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
We generally like to talk about fact and science, and not old spiritualism. Though I have to admit, prophecy remains very popular here! But mostly with HNers taking the role of prophet.

MisterBastahrd 11y ago

A good conversation about a real world subject would ignore allegorical political writing from 2000 years ago posing as mythology because it isn't relevant or insightful.

Olscore 11y ago
Cashless societies are advanced as a solution to problems of moral decay. E.g., doing business under the table, not reporting taxes due to governments, or performing an illicit transaction. In many ways, advocacy of a cashless society is admittance that people are dishonest, and therefore all transactions should be made electronic. Instead of strengthening individual morality, workaround solutions are proposed -- like those trying to fix a morally bankrupt society via algorithmic systems that require no morality whatsoever. So whether it be a government sponsored currency, perhaps a world currency, to stop bad behavior and bad actors; or a public blockchain (Anarcho-capitalism). We as a society are now faced with a moral decision centered around privacy and how much of it should be entrusted to governments. Notice how the thesis of cryptocurrencies is trust-less systems, because people / governments are assumed to be nefarious by default. That is a big nuance being ignored. Ultimately (IMO) this is an issue of morality. One which benefits from reading history, analogy, literary examples or anything for that matter. We are seeing a tug of war between citizenry and governments in the financial and cryptographic realms. This is relevant. The financial system and notions of a cashless society foster a growing anti-government sentiment. It is obvious in this and other threads; a strong pushback against government, which all relate back to the Books mentioned. It is difficult to ignore the religious or moral contexts of this topic. Especially peculiar when Bitcoin has already established a cult following, complete with a pseudo-church which evangelizes. Not to mention it was created by a supposedly anti-government (Satoshi) person "yet to be revealed". Is playful conjecture not fair discussion? You can clearly see companies are racing to research cryptocurrencies, artificial intelligence, and what same may argue as anti-government measures. So, I think a real world subject -- is subject -- to everything of the real world. Like the written Words of The Bible and anything else that exists for good interpretation. When 2+ Billion people identify as Christian, and they (potentially) push back against cashless societies, it will become exceptionally relevant.