8 ms·

Unless you have authorized them to do this under the Terms and Conditions of course.....

by nakedrobot2 11y ago

Karunamon 11y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, you cannot contract your way out of criminal law.
- dchest 11y ago
  In this case, every giving would be stealing. If I gave you something, you didn't steal it from me. Likewise, if I gave you the right to impersonate me in particular circumstances, it's not a criminal offense if you do.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 11y ago
    Except he obviously didn't give them permission to do this.
  - IanCal 11y ago
    The comparison to stealing is frankly ridiculous, as the law doesn't say you can't transfer money. It will explicitly talk about consent. If contracts allowed you to agree to anything then minimum wage laws couldn't work. Which side the impersonation laws fall on will depend on how they're written.
    - OJFord 11y ago
      What about boxing, martial arts sparring, fencing, assisted suicide, and voting by proxy? The point here is that you either _can_ contract your way out, or (what I suspect is the case) there re exclusions in the law were relevant. Either way, it suggests this might not be illegal if covered by something blindly tick-boxed.
      - ams6110 11y ago
        You seem to be opertating under the delusion that the law is logically consistent. It isn't. There are some things you can allow by contract/permission and some things you cannot, and circumstance matters.
        OJFord 11y ago
        No, I'm not. I'm responding to the blanket statement to the contrary. I fully expect that it's a case of cased exclusions as I've said in another comment.
      - IanCal 11y ago
        You cannot, uniformly, give people the ability to do anything to you. That's the point I'm making. > What about boxing, martial arts sparring, fencing Consent only works up to a point. I cannot consent to you stabbing me or beating me into a bloody pulp. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_(criminal_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_(criminal_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Brown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Brown It's worth noting that bare knuckle boxing is illegal in the UK, and you can't just sign a document to do it. > assisted suicide Assisted suicide is illegal in the UK. It does not matter if the patient signs a contract to say it's OK, it's still illegal.
        OJFord 11y ago
        Again, my point about AS was that it has it's own legislation, implying to me at least that that of murder, manslaughter, suicide do not necessarily cover it by default.
  - iopq 11y ago
    If your Windows EULA said "Microsoft can take any of your property" they still can't steal from you just because you agreed to it.
    - donatj 11y ago
      It would no longer be stealing because you agreed to it. This is why repossession is legal.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        Such a contract would likely be ruled unconscionable (invalid) if anyone challenged it. I don't think there's a judge in the country that could be convinced that any piece of code is good enough consideration for random tangible property.
    - dchest 11y ago
      Yes, you can agree to transfer all of your property to Microsoft in exchange for a Windows license. But including this in EULA will not work though, as there are limits on what you can agree to without signature or notary.
  - notalaser 11y ago
    It depends on where you are in the world, but in most places in the civilized world, criminal law does not work that way. If something is illegal, we cannot sign a contract that says it's ok between you and me, and magically make it legal. E.g. if I kill someone, the state will prosecute me for murder, regardless of whether or not that guy and I signed a contract that said it was fine. If impersonating someone is a criminal offense in a particular jurisdiction, then -- assuming that jurisdiction has a sane criminal code -- there is no way to make it legal through a contract. Edit: there are good reasons why this is in place, the most relevant of which is that it provides protection against abuses. Otherwise, we'd have things like employers that would still be at liberty to use lashing and beating as disciplinary action against employees who don't really have a choice about signing a contract or not.
    - vidarh 11y ago
      The point is that the specific criteria defining what is criminal can include whether or not there is consent. A contract can establish consent. E.g. if I go into your house without permission and take stuff, then it is theft. If I have a contract saying that I have permission to go into your house and take stuff, then it is not. I have not contracted my away from something illegal. The contract has established consent, which meant the criteria that otherwise would have made my actions criminal are not fulfilled. > If impersonating someone is a criminal offense in a particular jurisdiction, then -- assuming that jurisdiction has a sane criminal code -- there is no way to make it legal through a contract. That depends whether or not the criteria that needs to be met for it to be a crime requires lack of consent. If it requires lack of consent, then a contract can document that the consent has been given. All jurisdictions I'm aware of (not a lawyer) have the concept of agents that may act on your behalf with consent. To what extent such agents can act using your name (with consent) vs. using their own name but on your behalf, varies greatly. E.g. some places your agents (say a PA) will sign letters "[agents name] for and on behalf of [your name]" or similar, while other places they will use a signature stamp with your signature, or do "p.p. [their signature] [your printed name]" (the p.p. stands for "per procurationem"). Many other variations are in use, and how obvious signs there are that a document was not personally signed by the person the letter is from varies greatly.
JupiterMoon 11y ago
No! If an offence is criminal it can't be magically made OK by a contract. I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.
- wojt_eu 11y ago
  Wouldn't it make it impossible under California law to have an agent that impersonate me? Have them tweet from my account, reply to emails in my name etc.
  - robzyb 11y ago
    It is, of course, perfectly legal to do that with permission. The problem here is that it was done without permission. The OP is claiming that the impersonation without permission is a crime, and that it is impossible to waive the crime-ness of it through a contract.
    - OJFord 11y ago
      Parent is replying to a comment stating: > If an offence is criminal it can't be magically made OK > by a contract. I think this must be mistaken (IANAL either). Boxing, assisted suicide, and voting by proxy come to mind.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - svckr 11y ago
        The quote sounds right to me. If the act of impersonating someone is indeed a criminal offense, you can not smooth that over with a contract. Voting by proxy is not impersonation, you give someone the right to act (vote in this case) in your name. Thus, no criminal offense. The other cases: Assisted suicide is a criminal offense in many countries. For example (similar, but not the same), there has been some legal struggle over "Sterbehilfe" here in Germany which garnered quite some media attention. Boxing – I might be mistaken, but perhaps "beating someone" is not a criminal offense as long as it is not against the other persons will? All these things hinge on very subtle differences in wording. For example the terms might say: "AngelList reserves the right to send mails on your behalf" which grants them the right to send mails to third parties in your name, but I'd be surprised if law would allow them to state "AngelList reserves the right to claim your identity".
morninj 11y ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted so much. The statute clearly imposes penalties for impersonation "without consent," so consent is a defense here.
btbuildem 11y ago
If I authorize you to kill someone, you're still on hook for committing the murder.
jjallen 11y ago
A contract that requires a party to do something illegal is inherently unenforceable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_agreement To illustrate why this is the case, we can look at an extreme example: a contract to have someone murdered. Would a court enforce that? Of course not.

Unless you have authorized them to do this under the Terms and Conditions of course.....

Karunamon 11y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, you cannot contract your way out of criminal law.

dchest 11y ago
In this case, every giving would be stealing. If I gave you something, you didn't steal it from me. Likewise, if I gave you the right to impersonate me in particular circumstances, it's not a criminal offense if you do.
- 9935c101ab17a66 11y ago
  Except he obviously didn't give them permission to do this.
- IanCal 11y ago
  The comparison to stealing is frankly ridiculous, as the law doesn't say you can't transfer money. It will explicitly talk about consent. If contracts allowed you to agree to anything then minimum wage laws couldn't work. Which side the impersonation laws fall on will depend on how they're written.
  - OJFord 11y ago
    What about boxing, martial arts sparring, fencing, assisted suicide, and voting by proxy? The point here is that you either _can_ contract your way out, or (what I suspect is the case) there re exclusions in the law were relevant. Either way, it suggests this might not be illegal if covered by something blindly tick-boxed.
    - ams6110 11y ago
      You seem to be opertating under the delusion that the law is logically consistent. It isn't. There are some things you can allow by contract/permission and some things you cannot, and circumstance matters.
      - OJFord 11y ago
        No, I'm not. I'm responding to the blanket statement to the contrary. I fully expect that it's a case of cased exclusions as I've said in another comment.
    - IanCal 11y ago
      You cannot, uniformly, give people the ability to do anything to you. That's the point I'm making. > What about boxing, martial arts sparring, fencing Consent only works up to a point. I cannot consent to you stabbing me or beating me into a bloody pulp. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_(criminal_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_(criminal_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Brown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Brown It's worth noting that bare knuckle boxing is illegal in the UK, and you can't just sign a document to do it. > assisted suicide Assisted suicide is illegal in the UK. It does not matter if the patient signs a contract to say it's OK, it's still illegal.
      - OJFord 11y ago
        Again, my point about AS was that it has it's own legislation, implying to me at least that that of murder, manslaughter, suicide do not necessarily cover it by default.
- iopq 11y ago
  If your Windows EULA said "Microsoft can take any of your property" they still can't steal from you just because you agreed to it.
  - donatj 11y ago
    It would no longer be stealing because you agreed to it. This is why repossession is legal.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      Such a contract would likely be ruled unconscionable (invalid) if anyone challenged it. I don't think there's a judge in the country that could be convinced that any piece of code is good enough consideration for random tangible property.
  - dchest 11y ago
    Yes, you can agree to transfer all of your property to Microsoft in exchange for a Windows license. But including this in EULA will not work though, as there are limits on what you can agree to without signature or notary.
- notalaser 11y ago
  It depends on where you are in the world, but in most places in the civilized world, criminal law does not work that way. If something is illegal, we cannot sign a contract that says it's ok between you and me, and magically make it legal. E.g. if I kill someone, the state will prosecute me for murder, regardless of whether or not that guy and I signed a contract that said it was fine. If impersonating someone is a criminal offense in a particular jurisdiction, then -- assuming that jurisdiction has a sane criminal code -- there is no way to make it legal through a contract. Edit: there are good reasons why this is in place, the most relevant of which is that it provides protection against abuses. Otherwise, we'd have things like employers that would still be at liberty to use lashing and beating as disciplinary action against employees who don't really have a choice about signing a contract or not.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    The point is that the specific criteria defining what is criminal can include whether or not there is consent. A contract can establish consent. E.g. if I go into your house without permission and take stuff, then it is theft. If I have a contract saying that I have permission to go into your house and take stuff, then it is not. I have not contracted my away from something illegal. The contract has established consent, which meant the criteria that otherwise would have made my actions criminal are not fulfilled. > If impersonating someone is a criminal offense in a particular jurisdiction, then -- assuming that jurisdiction has a sane criminal code -- there is no way to make it legal through a contract. That depends whether or not the criteria that needs to be met for it to be a crime requires lack of consent. If it requires lack of consent, then a contract can document that the consent has been given. All jurisdictions I'm aware of (not a lawyer) have the concept of agents that may act on your behalf with consent. To what extent such agents can act using your name (with consent) vs. using their own name but on your behalf, varies greatly. E.g. some places your agents (say a PA) will sign letters "[agents name] for and on behalf of [your name]" or similar, while other places they will use a signature stamp with your signature, or do "p.p. [their signature] [your printed name]" (the p.p. stands for "per procurationem"). Many other variations are in use, and how obvious signs there are that a document was not personally signed by the person the letter is from varies greatly.

JupiterMoon 11y ago

No! If an offence is criminal it can't be magically made OK by a contract. I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

wojt_eu 11y ago
Wouldn't it make it impossible under California law to have an agent that impersonate me? Have them tweet from my account, reply to emails in my name etc.
- robzyb 11y ago
  It is, of course, perfectly legal to do that with permission. The problem here is that it was done without permission. The OP is claiming that the impersonation without permission is a crime, and that it is impossible to waive the crime-ness of it through a contract.
  - OJFord 11y ago
    Parent is replying to a comment stating: > If an offence is criminal it can't be magically made OK > by a contract. I think this must be mistaken (IANAL either). Boxing, assisted suicide, and voting by proxy come to mind.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - svckr 11y ago
      The quote sounds right to me. If the act of impersonating someone is indeed a criminal offense, you can not smooth that over with a contract. Voting by proxy is not impersonation, you give someone the right to act (vote in this case) in your name. Thus, no criminal offense. The other cases: Assisted suicide is a criminal offense in many countries. For example (similar, but not the same), there has been some legal struggle over "Sterbehilfe" here in Germany which garnered quite some media attention. Boxing – I might be mistaken, but perhaps "beating someone" is not a criminal offense as long as it is not against the other persons will? All these things hinge on very subtle differences in wording. For example the terms might say: "AngelList reserves the right to send mails on your behalf" which grants them the right to send mails to third parties in your name, but I'd be surprised if law would allow them to state "AngelList reserves the right to claim your identity".

morninj 11y ago

Not sure why you're being downvoted so much. The statute clearly imposes penalties for impersonation "without consent," so consent is a defense here.

btbuildem 11y ago

If I authorize you to kill someone, you're still on hook for committing the murder.

jjallen 11y ago

A contract that requires a party to do something illegal is inherently unenforceable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_agreement To illustrate why this is the case, we can look at an extreme example: a contract to have someone murdered. Would a court enforce that? Of course not.