5 ms·

The Road Taken – History and Future of U.S. Infrastructure

39 points by Osiris30 11y ago

Ben-G 11y ago
In this somewhat related article the controller of SF discusses how the city's budget is used: http://www.sfexaminer.com/san-franciscos-9-billion-question/ http://www.sfexaminer.com/san-franciscos-9-billion-question/ It's fairly obvious that there isn't enough $ for infrastructure investment on a municipal level. I'm not entirely sure how the system in the U.S. works but it appears that a city is responsible for the maintenance of its own roads. For transit cities like SF this is somewhat unfortunate. The 7 million people living in the Bay Area use these streets frequently but a majority does not contribute to funding them. Probably city tolls (for regular streets, not only bridges) could help mitigate this issue.
- paulddraper 11y ago
  > a majority does not contribute to funding them There are all sorts of taxes: property taxes, toll roads, sales taxes, etc. The 7 million will pay these taxes in one way or another.
  - stretchwithme 11y ago
    Paying directly for something is better than paying indirectly. Because you consider the cost of a resource before you use it. If we all paid a hotel tax instead of paying for hotel rooms, a lot more people would be staying in hotels and there would be no way to allocate scarce resources when demand is high, other than first come, first served. That would mean chronic hotel shortages and ever-increasing amounts of public money being spent to build new capacity so that nobody goes without when demand is high. And that's exactly what many people face at rush hour: a shortage of available road. Except we've been conditioned to think this is somehow normal and unsolvable, when its actually artificial. In Singapore, they have demand pricing and a lot less congestion at rush hour.
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      > Paying directly for something is better than paying indirectly. Because you consider the cost of a resource before you use it. That does not work because it disadvantages the areas which are underdeveloped. > In Singapore, they have demand pricing and a lot less congestion at rush hour. But Singapore is tiny and quote homogenous. If there were no legal requirements for USPS for instance to operate all over the country then Alaska would not have a mail service at all. There are areas too sparsely populated / too poor to afford infrastructure and (federal) taxes are necessary to finance it.
      - rayiner 11y ago
        > If there were no legal requirements for USPS for instance to operate all over the country then Alaska would not have a mail service at all. There are areas too sparsely populated / too poor to afford infrastructure and (federal) taxes are necessary to finance it. Isn't that just the market saying it's too inefficient for anyone to live in Alaska?
      - DrScump 11y ago
        Not taxes; other USPS ratepayers.
      - harryh 11y ago
        FedEx operates in Alaska without any legal requirement to do so. That doesn't count as mail service?
      - stretchwithme 11y ago
        What does homogeneity have to do with it? Does it make you more likely to favor mass transit over sitting in traffic for long periods?
- jakelarkin 11y ago
  That article, I believe, was a reaction to http://modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/san-franciscos-incredible-expanding-budget http://modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/san-franciscos-i... While an interesting "matter of fact" summary it doesn't really answer the question posed - Why, in a decade of 21% inflation and 10% population growth, has SF's budget doubled? And why hasn't that spending translated into meaningful solutions to pressing city issues like decaying infrastructure (roads, sewers, pub trans) or homelessness. The likely real answers, hidden in those departmental budgets, are administrative waste and generous, massively underfunded city employee benefits packages - particularly from the 1990 to 2010 era.
- DrScump 11y ago
  <a city is responsible for the maintenance of its own roads> Well, generally, but even surface streets can be the responsibility of (and under the ultimate control of) the state, county, or Feds. Some U.S. highways encompass surface street segments or cross Federal property. State routes can encompass (or be mostly) surface streets (e.g. much of El Camino Real). The Expressways in Santa Clara County (Central, Southwest, Oregon, Lawrence, part of Guadalupe) are generally county roads. This becomes a real pain when trying to report a signal light malfunction ("not ours, call CalTrans") or a traffic issue ("transferring you to CHP dispatch...").
massysett 11y ago
"Guardrails should be designed with their ends buried in the ground so that vehicles can’t crash into them, for example" Maybe I'll read this because I shall like to see his reasoning. Many guardrails used to be like this. My recollection is that when guardrail ends are buried, vehicles can easily run over the end so the middle of the car rides up over the guardrail. This can flip the car over--either onto the road or onto whatever the guardrail was supposed to be guarding. So my understanding was that the reason guardrail ends are now simply exposed and capped off is because it's better to collide head on with a guardrail than it is to ride over a guardrail and flip over. [edit] this is further discussed at this link. Maybe the book discusses this better than the review did. http://www.crashforensics.com/papers.cfm?PaperID=53 http://www.crashforensics.com/papers.cfm?PaperID=53
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  > Maybe I'll read this because I shall like to see his reasoning. Many guardrails used to be like this. My recollection is that when guardrail ends are buried, vehicles can easily run over the end so the middle of the car rides up over the guardrail. This can flip the car over--either onto the road or onto whatever the guardrail was supposed to be guarding. Yeah, I remember this coming up in discussions in Austria as well. The current design of guardrails involves moving the guardrail terminal out of harms way: http://www.land-der-erfinder.at/wp-content/uploads/Leitschiene.png http://www.land-der-erfinder.at/wp-content/uploads/Leitschie... And for retrofitting guard rails between lanes where there is not enough space, they installed shock absorbers: http://www.land-der-erfinder.at/wp-content/uploads/Aufpralld%C3%A4mpfer.png http://www.land-der-erfinder.at/wp-content/uploads/Aufpralld... If you crash into those it crumples.
  - DrScump 11y ago
    <they installed shock absorbers> In the SF Bay Area, such junctions of guardrails tend to be preceded by what look like huge plastic garbage pails filled with sand, apparently to absorb as much energy as possible without (or, at least, before) bouncing such vehicles back into traffic. The other extreme was a freeway case (locals to the San Jose area can see this now, on 85 northbound in Cupertino between the onramp from 280 westbound and the Fremont Ave. exit) where the guardrail began about 10 feet from the side soundwall, leaving a car-width's gap to the right of the guardrail. A perpendicular soundwall was about 30 feet beyond. One evening, a car went right through the gap and into the perpendicular wall at full speed. Subsequently, the guardrail was extended at an angle to meet the side soundwall.
hanniabu 11y ago
What the government really needs to do is adopt newer software that will allow for better tracking of what needs repairs, what has been repaired, when something was last inspected, what needs inspection, and repair reporting tools. They should also adopt software that would allow them to better schedule all these repairs efficiently and in a timely matter. All this software should have contractor bidding platform integrated into it and also be integrated with scheduled utility repairs. This software can be used to anticipate budgets since you would know what upcoming repairs and inspections are needed. It would also prevent the situation where a city finally paves a nice new road after 15 years of potholes and then 2 weeks after completion the gas companies come in and tear up the road to do their work and do a shitty job patching the road back up so you're left with potholes again within a year, all thanks to poor communication. I know a few cities have adopted apps that allow residents to report needed repairs and they've been working great, both with upkeep and cost savings. That should really be proof of concept enough to make the needed changes, but I suspect there will be a long pause to the politicians can give their friends enough time to make a similar knockoff product and grant them an over-priced contact.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  > What the government really needs to do is adopt newer software that will allow for better tracking of what needs repairs, what has been repaired, when something was last inspected, what needs inspection, and repair reporting tools. May I ask what the point of that would be? It's not like figuring out what's broken is a hard task. This sounds like it would drive up infrastructure cost even more than it already is.
  - losteric 11y ago
    That's like saying the software world don't need issue trackers/scrum boards/todo lists because it's easy for devs to figure out bugs... City projects operate at scales beyond most companies... Coordination is kinda important for a decentralized organization running multiple billion dollar projects that impact thousands upon thousands of shareholders and consumers.
teddyh 11y ago
In the U.S., apparently “infrastructure” means “roads”. Hardly a mention of trains, no mentions of optical fibers, electric grids, etc.
- guelo 11y ago
  Or lead filled water pipes.
  - DrScump 11y ago
    Many (most?) water systems are privately owned, as are most (not all) utilities.
    - rayiner 11y ago
      Most water utilities are public. Only 11% of people receive water from private utilities. Even privately owned utilities are often quasi-public entities. They may be privately run, but often a public agency sets rates.
- Grishnakh 11y ago
  There's a reason for that. Here in the US, we don't consider train tracks to be "infrastructure" because they're almost all privately owned. Amtrak has to lease track usage from heavy freight railroads, and their trains have to sit and wait any time a freight train wants the track: freight has priority over passengers in this country. Optical fibers are not infrastructure here, because that's all privately owned too (even if the land to put it on was gifted to the corporations who own the fiber). Electric grids are privately owned too, but their owners are regulated as utility monopolies. So basically, only roads and bridges are actually publicly-owned.
  - massysett 11y ago
    I know of no definition of "infrastructure" that hinges on whether it is publicly owned. The Department of Homeland Security plans for "critical infrastructure security" and it acknowledges that most "critical infrastructure" is privately owned. https://www.dhs.gov/what-critical-infrastructure https://www.dhs.gov/what-critical-infrastructure
Grishnakh 11y ago
There's been some movies about the future of US infrastructure. They usually have the name "Mad Max" in them.

39 points by Osiris30 11y ago

Ben-G 11y ago

In this somewhat related article the controller of SF discusses how the city's budget is used: http://www.sfexaminer.com/san-franciscos-9-billion-question/ http://www.sfexaminer.com/san-franciscos-9-billion-question/ It's fairly obvious that there isn't enough $ for infrastructure investment on a municipal level. I'm not entirely sure how the system in the U.S. works but it appears that a city is responsible for the maintenance of its own roads. For transit cities like SF this is somewhat unfortunate. The 7 million people living in the Bay Area use these streets frequently but a majority does not contribute to funding them. Probably city tolls (for regular streets, not only bridges) could help mitigate this issue.

paulddraper 11y ago
> a majority does not contribute to funding them There are all sorts of taxes: property taxes, toll roads, sales taxes, etc. The 7 million will pay these taxes in one way or another.
- stretchwithme 11y ago
  Paying directly for something is better than paying indirectly. Because you consider the cost of a resource before you use it. If we all paid a hotel tax instead of paying for hotel rooms, a lot more people would be staying in hotels and there would be no way to allocate scarce resources when demand is high, other than first come, first served. That would mean chronic hotel shortages and ever-increasing amounts of public money being spent to build new capacity so that nobody goes without when demand is high. And that's exactly what many people face at rush hour: a shortage of available road. Except we've been conditioned to think this is somehow normal and unsolvable, when its actually artificial. In Singapore, they have demand pricing and a lot less congestion at rush hour.
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    > Paying directly for something is better than paying indirectly. Because you consider the cost of a resource before you use it. That does not work because it disadvantages the areas which are underdeveloped. > In Singapore, they have demand pricing and a lot less congestion at rush hour. But Singapore is tiny and quote homogenous. If there were no legal requirements for USPS for instance to operate all over the country then Alaska would not have a mail service at all. There are areas too sparsely populated / too poor to afford infrastructure and (federal) taxes are necessary to finance it.
    - rayiner 11y ago
      > If there were no legal requirements for USPS for instance to operate all over the country then Alaska would not have a mail service at all. There are areas too sparsely populated / too poor to afford infrastructure and (federal) taxes are necessary to finance it. Isn't that just the market saying it's too inefficient for anyone to live in Alaska?
    - DrScump 11y ago
      Not taxes; other USPS ratepayers.
    - harryh 11y ago
      FedEx operates in Alaska without any legal requirement to do so. That doesn't count as mail service?
    - stretchwithme 11y ago
      What does homogeneity have to do with it? Does it make you more likely to favor mass transit over sitting in traffic for long periods?
jakelarkin 11y ago
That article, I believe, was a reaction to http://modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/san-franciscos-incredible-expanding-budget http://modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/san-franciscos-i... While an interesting "matter of fact" summary it doesn't really answer the question posed - Why, in a decade of 21% inflation and 10% population growth, has SF's budget doubled? And why hasn't that spending translated into meaningful solutions to pressing city issues like decaying infrastructure (roads, sewers, pub trans) or homelessness. The likely real answers, hidden in those departmental budgets, are administrative waste and generous, massively underfunded city employee benefits packages - particularly from the 1990 to 2010 era.
DrScump 11y ago
<a city is responsible for the maintenance of its own roads> Well, generally, but even surface streets can be the responsibility of (and under the ultimate control of) the state, county, or Feds. Some U.S. highways encompass surface street segments or cross Federal property. State routes can encompass (or be mostly) surface streets (e.g. much of El Camino Real). The Expressways in Santa Clara County (Central, Southwest, Oregon, Lawrence, part of Guadalupe) are generally county roads. This becomes a real pain when trying to report a signal light malfunction ("not ours, call CalTrans") or a traffic issue ("transferring you to CHP dispatch...").

massysett 11y ago

"Guardrails should be designed with their ends buried in the ground so that vehicles can’t crash into them, for example" Maybe I'll read this because I shall like to see his reasoning. Many guardrails used to be like this. My recollection is that when guardrail ends are buried, vehicles can easily run over the end so the middle of the car rides up over the guardrail. This can flip the car over--either onto the road or onto whatever the guardrail was supposed to be guarding. So my understanding was that the reason guardrail ends are now simply exposed and capped off is because it's better to collide head on with a guardrail than it is to ride over a guardrail and flip over. [edit] this is further discussed at this link. Maybe the book discusses this better than the review did. http://www.crashforensics.com/papers.cfm?PaperID=53 http://www.crashforensics.com/papers.cfm?PaperID=53

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
> Maybe I'll read this because I shall like to see his reasoning. Many guardrails used to be like this. My recollection is that when guardrail ends are buried, vehicles can easily run over the end so the middle of the car rides up over the guardrail. This can flip the car over--either onto the road or onto whatever the guardrail was supposed to be guarding. Yeah, I remember this coming up in discussions in Austria as well. The current design of guardrails involves moving the guardrail terminal out of harms way: http://www.land-der-erfinder.at/wp-content/uploads/Leitschiene.png http://www.land-der-erfinder.at/wp-content/uploads/Leitschie... And for retrofitting guard rails between lanes where there is not enough space, they installed shock absorbers: http://www.land-der-erfinder.at/wp-content/uploads/Aufpralld%C3%A4mpfer.png http://www.land-der-erfinder.at/wp-content/uploads/Aufpralld... If you crash into those it crumples.
- DrScump 11y ago
  <they installed shock absorbers> In the SF Bay Area, such junctions of guardrails tend to be preceded by what look like huge plastic garbage pails filled with sand, apparently to absorb as much energy as possible without (or, at least, before) bouncing such vehicles back into traffic. The other extreme was a freeway case (locals to the San Jose area can see this now, on 85 northbound in Cupertino between the onramp from 280 westbound and the Fremont Ave. exit) where the guardrail began about 10 feet from the side soundwall, leaving a car-width's gap to the right of the guardrail. A perpendicular soundwall was about 30 feet beyond. One evening, a car went right through the gap and into the perpendicular wall at full speed. Subsequently, the guardrail was extended at an angle to meet the side soundwall.

hanniabu 11y ago

What the government really needs to do is adopt newer software that will allow for better tracking of what needs repairs, what has been repaired, when something was last inspected, what needs inspection, and repair reporting tools. They should also adopt software that would allow them to better schedule all these repairs efficiently and in a timely matter. All this software should have contractor bidding platform integrated into it and also be integrated with scheduled utility repairs. This software can be used to anticipate budgets since you would know what upcoming repairs and inspections are needed. It would also prevent the situation where a city finally paves a nice new road after 15 years of potholes and then 2 weeks after completion the gas companies come in and tear up the road to do their work and do a shitty job patching the road back up so you're left with potholes again within a year, all thanks to poor communication. I know a few cities have adopted apps that allow residents to report needed repairs and they've been working great, both with upkeep and cost savings. That should really be proof of concept enough to make the needed changes, but I suspect there will be a long pause to the politicians can give their friends enough time to make a similar knockoff product and grant them an over-priced contact.

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
> What the government really needs to do is adopt newer software that will allow for better tracking of what needs repairs, what has been repaired, when something was last inspected, what needs inspection, and repair reporting tools. May I ask what the point of that would be? It's not like figuring out what's broken is a hard task. This sounds like it would drive up infrastructure cost even more than it already is.
- losteric 11y ago
  That's like saying the software world don't need issue trackers/scrum boards/todo lists because it's easy for devs to figure out bugs... City projects operate at scales beyond most companies... Coordination is kinda important for a decentralized organization running multiple billion dollar projects that impact thousands upon thousands of shareholders and consumers.

teddyh 11y ago

In the U.S., apparently “infrastructure” means “roads”. Hardly a mention of trains, no mentions of optical fibers, electric grids, etc.

guelo 11y ago
Or lead filled water pipes.
- DrScump 11y ago
  Many (most?) water systems are privately owned, as are most (not all) utilities.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    Most water utilities are public. Only 11% of people receive water from private utilities. Even privately owned utilities are often quasi-public entities. They may be privately run, but often a public agency sets rates.
Grishnakh 11y ago
There's a reason for that. Here in the US, we don't consider train tracks to be "infrastructure" because they're almost all privately owned. Amtrak has to lease track usage from heavy freight railroads, and their trains have to sit and wait any time a freight train wants the track: freight has priority over passengers in this country. Optical fibers are not infrastructure here, because that's all privately owned too (even if the land to put it on was gifted to the corporations who own the fiber). Electric grids are privately owned too, but their owners are regulated as utility monopolies. So basically, only roads and bridges are actually publicly-owned.
- massysett 11y ago
  I know of no definition of "infrastructure" that hinges on whether it is publicly owned. The Department of Homeland Security plans for "critical infrastructure security" and it acknowledges that most "critical infrastructure" is privately owned. https://www.dhs.gov/what-critical-infrastructure https://www.dhs.gov/what-critical-infrastructure

Grishnakh 11y ago

There's been some movies about the future of US infrastructure. They usually have the name "Mad Max" in them.