6 ms·

Ask HN: I'm a “successful,” uneducated programmer. What next?

Hi HN, I'm unsure what the next move is in my career. I'm in the US and have been in the industry for the past decade. I took classes at one point and did terribly, lacking motivation and being eager to return to the workforce. I spent my time there freelancing and left in the middle of the second semester, failing every class. My cumulative GPA is 2.0 at best. I can't stand school. After that I worked my way up from low-paying "grunt" positions to high-paying senior/informal lead positions, delivering great results at every job. I've taught myself a broad range of technologies and techniques in that time. Now it feels like I've hit my ceiling, and at 28 that's disappointing. I'd like to be a principal, architect, or even CTO. And I don't want to wait another ten years for the skepticism I meet at the workplace (due to the combination of a lack of education, and my youth) to evaporate. It makes it difficult to get the job done, especially when that requires the latitude to make sweeping technical decisions. Places like Google and LinkedIn have recruited me in the past, only to fall silent before so much as a phone screen due to the lack of a degree. But vets whose work I respect, from BigCorps like Google and Intel, have told me I'm one of the best they've worked with. How do I break this paper ceiling? Is it in my mind alone? Are there credible CS degrees that factor in work experience, so I could limit my laughable anguish in classroom learning? Would it even be worthwhile to pursue a degree, given my awful transcript? The other paths to the jobs I want seem to require fortune (work at a very successful startup and either get acquihired into a leadership role, or get the reputation so it's a foregone conclusion) or serious sacrifice (heavy OSS development outside of work, but I already give 100% to my day job). I already dismissed one such gift-horse, unable to relocate overseas when a BigCorp was going to hire me as a senior during an acquisition.

stray 11y ago
Read the book "As A Man Thinketh" by James Allen. It's a very small book and it'll take you an afternoon. If it doesn't turn things around for you, drop me an email and I'll send you whatever you paid the book (it's a safe bet on my part -- in 20 years nobody has ever asked for the refund).
- Finnucane 11y ago
  It's available for free on Project Gutenberg--I demand you give me my nothing back!
  - stray 11y ago
    That's awesome! Oh, and here is your refund:
- Zelmor 11y ago
  Or go straight to the source and read the Sayings of the Buddha. Now available in audio book format on youtube! :)
brianwawok 11y ago
Do you WANT to work for a bigcorp? Then maybe a degree makes sense. Do you want to work for a startup it yourself? Then I doubt they care. I have degrees but not sure they buy me much. Helped for my first job or two for sure.
- wanderinghacker 11y ago
  I don't know if a degree is the solution, I'm open to anything. Right now, it feels like the lack of education excludes me from the following opportunities: Engineer at a BigCorp, funded cofounder/first hire (investors seem to want that pedigree), and tech lead/architect at a non-tech company that relies on the degree heuristic for leadership hires. I frequently see exciting job postings that require a bachelor's/master's CS degree, no exceptions.
  - brianwawok 11y ago
    Ya and that may all be true, but I just don't feel it because I have a stamp. I did get my masters going part-time at night, some colleges support part time for bachelors as well. You COULD keep working and pick it up on the side... I know when I KNEW I needed a degree to do the job I wanted, I got much better grades because I cared. When I was just going to school to check a box, I had a hard time caring.
maxaf 11y ago
I've found that the kind of company that cultivates a culture in which degrees are paramount is not the kind of company I want to work for. I skipped college because I was alone in NYC and had to make ends meet. In that I'm wholly a self-made man, yet I choose to look forward to my future achievements instead of past ones. Anyone who is incapable of accepting my approach to life has nothing to offer me which I could learn. A word of caution: don't fall prey to the Peter principle. You seem to have marketable hard skills, which brought you some success to date. You're better off capitalizing on those hard skills instead of moving up the management ladder. Think of it this way: at 28 you still have 30-ish years of professional work to look forward to. Assuming you can make the jump to CTO right now, will you be able to sustain movement along a continuum of CTO-level employment until your retirement? That sounds unlikely because it is. You're better off pacing yourself by building out a technical base of unassailable solidity. You will reap rewards for this in the long term.
- wanderinghacker 11y ago
  This is excellent advice, thank you. I think that after rising through the ranks quickly, I'm worried that my advancement (and earnings) are now capped for a while. Meanwhile I see less skilled developers fresh out of school making near what I make, getting signing bonuses, etc. and no doubt on their way to better pay at more interesting jobs. So there is an element of envy. Often it feels like I'm on the outside looking in on the tech industry because of all of the opportunities that seem unattainable (described here in another comment).
  - Zelmor 11y ago
    Relax. You are young and have a lot of time ahead of you. Look not at what your neighbour has, for his gain is not your loss. I'm 30 and I have just decided on transiting from application support positions to linux and coding. All with an unfinished English BA, haha. What do I care for the young who figured their paths earlier and did well in school? All the better for them.
    - akulbe 11y ago
raincom 11y ago
There is an easy way to break the paper ceiling: get a degree from an accredited school for 'money'; there are many such schools out there, who will take your money happily and hand out degree in 3 years of course work completion. PM me to get more details. Follow maxaf's advice as well: Unless you can get a golden parachute when you are let go, don't think about the career progression on the management ladder.
- wanderinghacker 11y ago
  Thanks, and I hope the post didn't come across as aiming to be a manager, indeed that's the opposite of my goal. I'm mostly interested in becoming a principal/architect at some point and am worried that path is blocked. The sort of school you described doesn't sound very reputable... wouldn't that be a waste of money?
  - raincom 11y ago
    Only the people go to such schools know what is going on; for outsiders, not so much. They are not "for profit" schools. They are not "Devry/ITU/Univ of Phoenix".
    - peternicky 11y ago
      Can you share a few of these schools?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- argonaut 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure getting a degree from a school nobody has heard of is only marginally better than having no degree at all.
  - g8gggu89 11y ago
    After you already have an established career, maybe.
pfarnsworth 11y ago
I don't believe Google or Facebook would care if you have a degree. All that matters is how good of a coder you are. Case in point, Google has hired high school graduates, and Facebook's founder dropped out of college. I wouldn't be surprised if Facebook also hired high school grads or dropouts even.
argonaut 11y ago
If you want to work at Google/Facebook, you should try to find someone inside to refer you. Otherwise there really is no cost to aggressively following up with recruiters if they fall silent.
- wanderinghacker 11y ago
  I think you're right. I've avoided networking so far in my career but I have to overcome that silly sense of pride, because if anything is going to help, it's the personal references of those who do have the trust/pedigree. Honestly, I'm amazed I've even gotten this far purely on the strength of technical skills and moderate charisma.
runT1ME 11y ago
>Places like Google and LinkedIn have recruited me in the past, only to fall silent before so much as a phone screen due to the lack of a degree. But vets whose work I respect, from BigCorps like Google and Intel, have told me I'm one of the best they've worked with. No... this has nothing to with lack of degree. You are probably missing a skill they value. Find out what it is and fix that.
- wanderinghacker 11y ago
  I never applied to these places, so take this with a grain of salt. But when I was recruited by Google several years ago, the recruiter was enthusiastic but got back to me several days later saying that she simply could not sell the hiring manager on me because of lack of degree. In LinkedIn's case, they mistook me for a recent grad due to creating a new profile on their website, and after setting up an initial phone call that revealed this error, I never heard back from them (truthfully, the latter opportunity was probably not what I'd want anyway). You're right that I'm lacking in some skills, but it seems like the skill bar is set much higher for a person without a degree. You have to be truly exceptional to warrant consideration.
  - runT1ME 11y ago
    Oh, that's true. It may be different without a referral. If you get a referral, even just because you met someone at a meetup/conference and came off as a somewhat intelligent person, you should be able to bypass that filter step for sure. You'll still need an academic understanding of software, but we're talking maybe a year of part time self study at max if you have no clue about this sort of thing. Just my opinion. I haven't worked at Goog/Amzn but was scheduled to interview before I took another job.
Ologn 11y ago
One reason some companies want to see a college degree is for the exact reason you're not finishing it - because for many people, working four years without reward is to hard to get motivated for. They want the kind of people who will spend four years to get a reward at the end. I am also puzzled by you dropping out halfway through a semester and failing multiple classes. Why were you taking more than one class if such a thing were a possibility? You made two mistakes, not one. First, you heavily overburdened yourself with many classes. Then you did not drop one or some but all of them half-way. Sometimes schools will let you retake a course, and go from an F to the new grade. So all may not be lost in that respect. It ultimately doesn't matter anyhow, a 3.0 GPA and diploma trumps a 2.0 dropout. If I was you, I would, if I could commit myself to finishing a class, and really start out aiming for an A in the class, take one class a semester. For myself, due to business outside of class and/or a very hard class I sometimes let that slip to A-, then B+ etc. Start small (one class a semester - maybe at night or on the weekend), aim high and make an effort (try for an A). If circumstances show an A- is more likely, slowly settle on that. If needed, slowly back into a B+. Your big mistake was wildly overburdening yourself, then dramatically throwing in the towel on everything. Then having remorse and dread in revisiting school, whereas you may be able to retake those classes and turn an F into an A, and even if you can't you are better finishing school any how. You have to chop this down to what can be managed - one class a semester. Then aim high. If you get 100 every test (or 95) it will motivate you. You will also have the time to learn the subject - algorithms, databases, complexity theory - well. I don't think you'll break that wall you talk about until you go back and finish. Some outliers can, but most can not. You have to change how you approach it. Don't sign up for 3 classes then drop all of them. Sign up for one, and aim high. If circumstances force a B, fine, you did the best you could. Also try to avoid hardcore math and science classes for your first class back. Do a required easy course like 20th century American literature to get back in the swing of things.
- wanderinghacker 11y ago
  Thank you for the academic advice. > I am also puzzled by you dropping out halfway through a semester and failing multiple classes. OK, I omitted something (not deliberately. It's interesting how we unconsciously cut out the more painful parts of our lives). Being a young fool, I got into some legal trouble at the time and had to make money to hire a lawyer. I also had a court date set for the summertime, which ruled out my Spanish teacher's generous offer for me to stay with her family overseas that summer. This meant that I was about to be homeless, not to mention lacking any way to afford the legal fees. I was very lucky to get a good job offer as soon as I started looking. It meant that I had a three hour commute from my dorm, but I was able to save up enough money to land on my feet in two months. Otherwise, I would've been homeless. I did everything I could to complete the courses at first (studying and writing essays on my stolen two-hour commuter rail ride, for instance), but I simply lacked the energy and perseverance to make things work. After a month of trying this, I had to stop so that I could at least do well at the job. Most of my teachers were devastated when I told them that I could not continue with the coursework because I'd done very well to that point and was more engaged than most other students (it was well past the deadline to drop a course). Looking back on it, I'm amazed things went as well as they did. I do believe that this story would have gone quite differently for a person from a more privileged background than my own.

stray 11y ago

Read the book "As A Man Thinketh" by James Allen. It's a very small book and it'll take you an afternoon. If it doesn't turn things around for you, drop me an email and I'll send you whatever you paid the book (it's a safe bet on my part -- in 20 years nobody has ever asked for the refund).

Finnucane 11y ago
It's available for free on Project Gutenberg--I demand you give me my nothing back!
- stray 11y ago
  That's awesome! Oh, and here is your refund:
Zelmor 11y ago
Or go straight to the source and read the Sayings of the Buddha. Now available in audio book format on youtube! :)

brianwawok 11y ago

Do you WANT to work for a bigcorp? Then maybe a degree makes sense. Do you want to work for a startup it yourself? Then I doubt they care. I have degrees but not sure they buy me much. Helped for my first job or two for sure.

wanderinghacker 11y ago
I don't know if a degree is the solution, I'm open to anything. Right now, it feels like the lack of education excludes me from the following opportunities: Engineer at a BigCorp, funded cofounder/first hire (investors seem to want that pedigree), and tech lead/architect at a non-tech company that relies on the degree heuristic for leadership hires. I frequently see exciting job postings that require a bachelor's/master's CS degree, no exceptions.
- brianwawok 11y ago
  Ya and that may all be true, but I just don't feel it because I have a stamp. I did get my masters going part-time at night, some colleges support part time for bachelors as well. You COULD keep working and pick it up on the side... I know when I KNEW I needed a degree to do the job I wanted, I got much better grades because I cared. When I was just going to school to check a box, I had a hard time caring.

maxaf 11y ago

I've found that the kind of company that cultivates a culture in which degrees are paramount is not the kind of company I want to work for. I skipped college because I was alone in NYC and had to make ends meet. In that I'm wholly a self-made man, yet I choose to look forward to my future achievements instead of past ones. Anyone who is incapable of accepting my approach to life has nothing to offer me which I could learn. A word of caution: don't fall prey to the Peter principle. You seem to have marketable hard skills, which brought you some success to date. You're better off capitalizing on those hard skills instead of moving up the management ladder. Think of it this way: at 28 you still have 30-ish years of professional work to look forward to. Assuming you can make the jump to CTO right now, will you be able to sustain movement along a continuum of CTO-level employment until your retirement? That sounds unlikely because it is. You're better off pacing yourself by building out a technical base of unassailable solidity. You will reap rewards for this in the long term.

wanderinghacker 11y ago
This is excellent advice, thank you. I think that after rising through the ranks quickly, I'm worried that my advancement (and earnings) are now capped for a while. Meanwhile I see less skilled developers fresh out of school making near what I make, getting signing bonuses, etc. and no doubt on their way to better pay at more interesting jobs. So there is an element of envy. Often it feels like I'm on the outside looking in on the tech industry because of all of the opportunities that seem unattainable (described here in another comment).
- Zelmor 11y ago
  Relax. You are young and have a lot of time ahead of you. Look not at what your neighbour has, for his gain is not your loss. I'm 30 and I have just decided on transiting from application support positions to linux and coding. All with an unfinished English BA, haha. What do I care for the young who figured their paths earlier and did well in school? All the better for them.
  - akulbe 11y ago

raincom 11y ago

There is an easy way to break the paper ceiling: get a degree from an accredited school for 'money'; there are many such schools out there, who will take your money happily and hand out degree in 3 years of course work completion. PM me to get more details. Follow maxaf's advice as well: Unless you can get a golden parachute when you are let go, don't think about the career progression on the management ladder.

wanderinghacker 11y ago
Thanks, and I hope the post didn't come across as aiming to be a manager, indeed that's the opposite of my goal. I'm mostly interested in becoming a principal/architect at some point and am worried that path is blocked. The sort of school you described doesn't sound very reputable... wouldn't that be a waste of money?
- raincom 11y ago
  Only the people go to such schools know what is going on; for outsiders, not so much. They are not "for profit" schools. They are not "Devry/ITU/Univ of Phoenix".
  - peternicky 11y ago
    Can you share a few of these schools?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
argonaut 11y ago
I'm pretty sure getting a degree from a school nobody has heard of is only marginally better than having no degree at all.
- g8gggu89 11y ago
  After you already have an established career, maybe.

pfarnsworth 11y ago

I don't believe Google or Facebook would care if you have a degree. All that matters is how good of a coder you are. Case in point, Google has hired high school graduates, and Facebook's founder dropped out of college. I wouldn't be surprised if Facebook also hired high school grads or dropouts even.

argonaut 11y ago

If you want to work at Google/Facebook, you should try to find someone inside to refer you. Otherwise there really is no cost to aggressively following up with recruiters if they fall silent.

wanderinghacker 11y ago
I think you're right. I've avoided networking so far in my career but I have to overcome that silly sense of pride, because if anything is going to help, it's the personal references of those who do have the trust/pedigree. Honestly, I'm amazed I've even gotten this far purely on the strength of technical skills and moderate charisma.

runT1ME 11y ago

>Places like Google and LinkedIn have recruited me in the past, only to fall silent before so much as a phone screen due to the lack of a degree. But vets whose work I respect, from BigCorps like Google and Intel, have told me I'm one of the best they've worked with. No... this has nothing to with lack of degree. You are probably missing a skill they value. Find out what it is and fix that.

wanderinghacker 11y ago
I never applied to these places, so take this with a grain of salt. But when I was recruited by Google several years ago, the recruiter was enthusiastic but got back to me several days later saying that she simply could not sell the hiring manager on me because of lack of degree. In LinkedIn's case, they mistook me for a recent grad due to creating a new profile on their website, and after setting up an initial phone call that revealed this error, I never heard back from them (truthfully, the latter opportunity was probably not what I'd want anyway). You're right that I'm lacking in some skills, but it seems like the skill bar is set much higher for a person without a degree. You have to be truly exceptional to warrant consideration.
- runT1ME 11y ago
  Oh, that's true. It may be different without a referral. If you get a referral, even just because you met someone at a meetup/conference and came off as a somewhat intelligent person, you should be able to bypass that filter step for sure. You'll still need an academic understanding of software, but we're talking maybe a year of part time self study at max if you have no clue about this sort of thing. Just my opinion. I haven't worked at Goog/Amzn but was scheduled to interview before I took another job.

Ologn 11y ago

One reason some companies want to see a college degree is for the exact reason you're not finishing it - because for many people, working four years without reward is to hard to get motivated for. They want the kind of people who will spend four years to get a reward at the end. I am also puzzled by you dropping out halfway through a semester and failing multiple classes. Why were you taking more than one class if such a thing were a possibility? You made two mistakes, not one. First, you heavily overburdened yourself with many classes. Then you did not drop one or some but all of them half-way. Sometimes schools will let you retake a course, and go from an F to the new grade. So all may not be lost in that respect. It ultimately doesn't matter anyhow, a 3.0 GPA and diploma trumps a 2.0 dropout. If I was you, I would, if I could commit myself to finishing a class, and really start out aiming for an A in the class, take one class a semester. For myself, due to business outside of class and/or a very hard class I sometimes let that slip to A-, then B+ etc. Start small (one class a semester - maybe at night or on the weekend), aim high and make an effort (try for an A). If circumstances show an A- is more likely, slowly settle on that. If needed, slowly back into a B+. Your big mistake was wildly overburdening yourself, then dramatically throwing in the towel on everything. Then having remorse and dread in revisiting school, whereas you may be able to retake those classes and turn an F into an A, and even if you can't you are better finishing school any how. You have to chop this down to what can be managed - one class a semester. Then aim high. If you get 100 every test (or 95) it will motivate you. You will also have the time to learn the subject - algorithms, databases, complexity theory - well. I don't think you'll break that wall you talk about until you go back and finish. Some outliers can, but most can not. You have to change how you approach it. Don't sign up for 3 classes then drop all of them. Sign up for one, and aim high. If circumstances force a B, fine, you did the best you could. Also try to avoid hardcore math and science classes for your first class back. Do a required easy course like 20th century American literature to get back in the swing of things.

wanderinghacker 11y ago
Thank you for the academic advice. > I am also puzzled by you dropping out halfway through a semester and failing multiple classes. OK, I omitted something (not deliberately. It's interesting how we unconsciously cut out the more painful parts of our lives). Being a young fool, I got into some legal trouble at the time and had to make money to hire a lawyer. I also had a court date set for the summertime, which ruled out my Spanish teacher's generous offer for me to stay with her family overseas that summer. This meant that I was about to be homeless, not to mention lacking any way to afford the legal fees. I was very lucky to get a good job offer as soon as I started looking. It meant that I had a three hour commute from my dorm, but I was able to save up enough money to land on my feet in two months. Otherwise, I would've been homeless. I did everything I could to complete the courses at first (studying and writing essays on my stolen two-hour commuter rail ride, for instance), but I simply lacked the energy and perseverance to make things work. After a month of trying this, I had to stop so that I could at least do well at the job. Most of my teachers were devastated when I told them that I could not continue with the coursework because I'd done very well to that point and was more engaged than most other students (it was well past the deadline to drop a course). Looking back on it, I'm amazed things went as well as they did. I do believe that this story would have gone quite differently for a person from a more privileged background than my own.