7 ms·

This, it's so important for society. If we want real democracy, software needs to be open-source. Please everybody, never stop promoting open-source solutions

by benevol 11y ago

This, it's so important for society. If we want real democracy, software needs to be open-source. Please everybody, never stop promoting open-source solutions to your friends & family.

anu7df 11y ago
Open source hardly guarantees anything. Governments armed with everything under the sun can make the lives of privacy advocates a living hell. When I was younger (no kids) I could think of standing up against it if need be. Things have changed, almost irrationally, with a family. Irrational because I would hate for my baby to grow up into an Orwellian dystopia but the fear of immediate consequences to the family keeps me from action. The point I am trying to make, is that government will not need to crack down on every one. Just a few brave snowdenlikes, the rest will either believe the government narrative or be afraid to rise up against it. So yes, open source is great, but we absolutely need corporations to stand up to government. Because let's face it.. In our society cash is king and a corporation like Apple has the cash,visibility and might to wield a sword for privacy even if they are possibly motivated by something other than concern for individual's privacy.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  > Open source hardly guarantees anything. { obligatory recommendation to watch PHK's "Operation Orchestra"[1], which discusses ways free and open software projects can be manipulated } [1] https://archive.fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/nsa_operation_orchestra/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/nsa_operation... > but we absolutely need corporations to stand up to government We need solidarity - the people and corporations - to stand up to problems in government. We also need the people and government to stand up to problems in corporations. Hoping that our social problems will be fixed by other people or some other group is a terrible defense strategy. There will always be people that try to control power or money; this requires constant vigilance and push-back from everybody; failure to do so creates more potentially exploitable attack surface. The technical people that actually implement modern society hold an incredible amount of power. Unfortunately, the people involved are easily distracted with off-topic minutia and vague threats.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    Corporations and governments aren't actual concrete things, they are labels put on certain actions of people (and corporations, specifically, are just names for certain actions of people through government.) So "people and corporations" and "people and government" are both just people.
    - pdkl95 11y ago
      That's correct. I'm making the distinction because of the comment that we "need corporations".
    - Absentinsomniac 11y ago
      The distinction is important because people in government and people in corporations usually have different motives than people in general. (Particularly people in leadership roles within these org's)
studentrob 11y ago
Agreed open source is very important. Does anyone here think all software should be open source? I'm interested to debate someone about that. I can't see how that works unless the whole world stops using money.
- CM30 11y ago
  Well, the WordPress scene tends to make most of their software open source, including the stuff they charge for. For example, every official WooCommerce plugin is under the GPL, as is Gravity Forms and Easy Digital Downloads. These are also paid plugins. What this means is that once you download them, you can theoretically use them on as many sites as you like, release edited versions yourself or use them for as long as you need to. What they charge for is basically the following: 1. Updates, since otherwise you have to find and install any updates outside the WordPress dashboard. 2. Support from their support team That's how the WordPress scene in general works for paid products. The products themselves can be used however you like, but a paid license gives you access to support and much improved ease of use as far as updates and things are concerned. So you can make money from open source software, and it would theoretically be possible to have all software as open source.
- schoen 11y ago
  > I can't see how that works unless the whole world stops using money. I think Richard Stallman addressed your concern in the GNU Manifesto back in 1985. (I don't mean to suggest that his answers will necessarily convince you, just that the issue has been discussed explicitly for that long.)
  - schoen 11y ago
    For subsequent thinking, there is a Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-sourc...
- dllthomas 11y ago
  > I can't see how that works unless the whole world stops using money. I'm hoping Snowdrift.coop makes it viable.
Veratyr 11y ago
I can't start promoting open source solutions to my friends and family because for most of their tasks, open source solutions aren't adequate. Some examples (taken from my wife): - Art: Photoshop, Illustrator and Corel Painter are required by employers and educational institutions. GIMP/Inkscape etc. don't have feature parity so often can't be adopted. - Messaging: Friends and family use Skype and Whatsapp. Network is too large to convert to an OSS alternative. No OSS alternatives are sufficiently developed to be viable regardless (Signal lacks a desktop/web (not Chrome) client, XMPP, Tox have no decent mobile story, Matrix clients are hard to sell). - Browsing: Chrome's built in translation doesn't seem to have a viable alternative in other browsers like Firefox. Chromium lacks auto-update which is dangerous. - Documents: There isn't any open source alternative I'm aware of to Google Docs that is nearly as convenient or easy to use. - OS: Linux/BSD can't run the software needed for work/study so they're a no go. It's easy to think in our little tech bubble that OSS is wonderful and we should be screaming from the rooftops to get people to use it but I just don't think it's ready yet. I can't even get my wife onto one OSS application and the same goes for most of the people I know.
- jeena 11y ago
  It sounds like the problem is that they value convenience more than freedom. That is their choice and the only thing you can do is to explain that to them and to choose differently yourself.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    No, that isn't the problem at all. When you understand why, you'll be better-equipped to work towards real solutions.
    - jeena 11y ago
      But you don't want to teach me what the real problem is quite yet?
      - CamperBob2 11y ago
rimantas 11y ago
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go. Democracy has nothing to do with open-source software and I will recommend the best tool for the job, open or closed source, thank you very much. OTOH maybe fewer peopel thinking that they have it all figured out and know the best what is good for society would be indeed good for democracy.
tdkl 11y ago
Well in a democracy, people can use whatever they like the most, but usually "open-source" goes hand in hand with "pain in the ass" and "doesn't have the user base".

by benevol 11y ago

This, it's so important for society. If we want real democracy, software needs to be open-source. Please everybody, never stop promoting open-source solutions to your friends & family.

anu7df 11y ago

Open source hardly guarantees anything. Governments armed with everything under the sun can make the lives of privacy advocates a living hell. When I was younger (no kids) I could think of standing up against it if need be. Things have changed, almost irrationally, with a family. Irrational because I would hate for my baby to grow up into an Orwellian dystopia but the fear of immediate consequences to the family keeps me from action. The point I am trying to make, is that government will not need to crack down on every one. Just a few brave snowdenlikes, the rest will either believe the government narrative or be afraid to rise up against it. So yes, open source is great, but we absolutely need corporations to stand up to government. Because let's face it.. In our society cash is king and a corporation like Apple has the cash,visibility and might to wield a sword for privacy even if they are possibly motivated by something other than concern for individual's privacy.

pdkl95 11y ago
> Open source hardly guarantees anything. { obligatory recommendation to watch PHK's "Operation Orchestra"[1], which discusses ways free and open software projects can be manipulated } [1] https://archive.fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/nsa_operation_orchestra/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/nsa_operation... > but we absolutely need corporations to stand up to government We need solidarity - the people and corporations - to stand up to problems in government. We also need the people and government to stand up to problems in corporations. Hoping that our social problems will be fixed by other people or some other group is a terrible defense strategy. There will always be people that try to control power or money; this requires constant vigilance and push-back from everybody; failure to do so creates more potentially exploitable attack surface. The technical people that actually implement modern society hold an incredible amount of power. Unfortunately, the people involved are easily distracted with off-topic minutia and vague threats.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  Corporations and governments aren't actual concrete things, they are labels put on certain actions of people (and corporations, specifically, are just names for certain actions of people through government.) So "people and corporations" and "people and government" are both just people.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    That's correct. I'm making the distinction because of the comment that we "need corporations".
  - Absentinsomniac 11y ago
    The distinction is important because people in government and people in corporations usually have different motives than people in general. (Particularly people in leadership roles within these org's)

studentrob 11y ago

Agreed open source is very important. Does anyone here think all software should be open source? I'm interested to debate someone about that. I can't see how that works unless the whole world stops using money.

CM30 11y ago
Well, the WordPress scene tends to make most of their software open source, including the stuff they charge for. For example, every official WooCommerce plugin is under the GPL, as is Gravity Forms and Easy Digital Downloads. These are also paid plugins. What this means is that once you download them, you can theoretically use them on as many sites as you like, release edited versions yourself or use them for as long as you need to. What they charge for is basically the following: 1. Updates, since otherwise you have to find and install any updates outside the WordPress dashboard. 2. Support from their support team That's how the WordPress scene in general works for paid products. The products themselves can be used however you like, but a paid license gives you access to support and much improved ease of use as far as updates and things are concerned. So you can make money from open source software, and it would theoretically be possible to have all software as open source.
schoen 11y ago
> I can't see how that works unless the whole world stops using money. I think Richard Stallman addressed your concern in the GNU Manifesto back in 1985. (I don't mean to suggest that his answers will necessarily convince you, just that the issue has been discussed explicitly for that long.)
- schoen 11y ago
  For subsequent thinking, there is a Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-sourc...
dllthomas 11y ago
> I can't see how that works unless the whole world stops using money. I'm hoping Snowdrift.coop makes it viable.

Veratyr 11y ago

I can't start promoting open source solutions to my friends and family because for most of their tasks, open source solutions aren't adequate. Some examples (taken from my wife): - Art: Photoshop, Illustrator and Corel Painter are required by employers and educational institutions. GIMP/Inkscape etc. don't have feature parity so often can't be adopted. - Messaging: Friends and family use Skype and Whatsapp. Network is too large to convert to an OSS alternative. No OSS alternatives are sufficiently developed to be viable regardless (Signal lacks a desktop/web (not Chrome) client, XMPP, Tox have no decent mobile story, Matrix clients are hard to sell). - Browsing: Chrome's built in translation doesn't seem to have a viable alternative in other browsers like Firefox. Chromium lacks auto-update which is dangerous. - Documents: There isn't any open source alternative I'm aware of to Google Docs that is nearly as convenient or easy to use. - OS: Linux/BSD can't run the software needed for work/study so they're a no go. It's easy to think in our little tech bubble that OSS is wonderful and we should be screaming from the rooftops to get people to use it but I just don't think it's ready yet. I can't even get my wife onto one OSS application and the same goes for most of the people I know.

jeena 11y ago
It sounds like the problem is that they value convenience more than freedom. That is their choice and the only thing you can do is to explain that to them and to choose differently yourself.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  No, that isn't the problem at all. When you understand why, you'll be better-equipped to work towards real solutions.
  - jeena 11y ago
    But you don't want to teach me what the real problem is quite yet?
    - CamperBob2 11y ago

rimantas 11y ago

Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go. Democracy has nothing to do with open-source software and I will recommend the best tool for the job, open or closed source, thank you very much. OTOH maybe fewer peopel thinking that they have it all figured out and know the best what is good for society would be indeed good for democracy.

tdkl 11y ago

Well in a democracy, people can use whatever they like the most, but usually "open-source" goes hand in hand with "pain in the ass" and "doesn't have the user base".