4 ms·

It's interesting how flat human nature stays over time, how advice given 136 years ago is still perfectly applicable today. Over the course of centuries life ha

by Mahn 11y ago

It's interesting how flat human nature stays over time, how advice given 136 years ago is still perfectly applicable today. Over the course of centuries life has changed dramatically, but we still think, worry, feel and act like our ancestors did from a millennium ago. I'd bet you could easily find advice given in the roman empire times that would still be relevant today.

drjesusphd 11y ago
http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html
jameslk 11y ago
I've thought about this a lot on a philosophical level. A person goes through life repeating the same mistakes their parents made and their grandparents made before them, and so on. We spend so much time re-learning things that have already been learned. And doing things that have already been done. Imagine how life could be different if we didn't have to start over each time.
- skosuri 11y ago
  Basically no one would dream foolhardy dreams anymore, which would make society horrible.
- BWStearns 11y ago
  I listened to a talk on counterinsurgency given by David Kilcullen (I am about 90% sure, it could have been Nagl), but he asked the audience about whether it was better to learn from experience or from academics. The audience was about evenly split but with a lot of abstainers, and he said academia was the better choice of course, because no on ever died from reading a book. While "teachable moments" in most contexts aren't fatal, the overall point that it's better to learn from other people's mistakes remains the same.
  - flyinglizard 11y ago
    It's a completely different matter between learning from theory and learning in practice. What's sorely missing from theoretical teaching is context - knowing when and how to apply this knowledge - and the actual experience of using it, which is critical to remembering what was taught. From my experience on this planet, purely theoretical teachings tend to be forgotten in favor of things you've actually used and done.
    - BWStearns 11y ago
      This logic always sounds good but I have a hard time really placing times when even in retrospect I lacked some wisdom from doing in order to apply the theory. I've had plenty of times where I lacked both the theory and the scraped elbows (creating shared state clusterfucks that seemed clever at the time), and times when I was missing the theory alone (mechanically reaching for the OO hammer because there was a nail-shaped screw in front of me). In all programming instances I can think of where I had the theory but not the experience I knew that there was a lot I didn't know and read about the implementation issues and went and bothered smarter people about it. Of course I wr[i|o]te plenty of shitty code in various contexts. I guess we can say that's the experience happening, but that's a bit unsatisfying as a model. With the theoretical learning you get measurably better: if you've literally never even heard of time complexity, or read the latency numbers everyone should know, you're more likely to write some code with some garbage performance. Once you know about it you're unlikely to write grossly nested loops making unnecessary un-batched requests to servers 12 timezones away, or if you do you'll at least feel gross about it and it will be a (bad) choice not a mistake. With experience with a particular technology you do as well. Knowing the Widget API inside out and knowing which Widget calls are lazy vs eager and which get cached or whatever are going to improve your code and get it written faster, but the gains are much more marginal than the theoretical knowledge. With enough practice learning new APIs gets easier. Remembering arbitrary incantations is something everyone eventually gets fairly good at. I think most of HN would do very well at Hogwarts. Assuming you already know how to program, I bet just reading something like Clean Code is likely to improve your JS quality more than an equivalent time spent churning out new JS (even though the example language in CC isn't JS so any benefit would be ported through theory). It's very cheap to implement theoretical concepts in practice and I think a lot of dismissiveness towards "theoretical" things are defensive insecurities and/or lazy, probably at the same rate that "premature optimization" is utilized in such causes. Software has a very narrow gulf between practical and theoretical. In domains where experience and theory are farther apart I propose that it's not so much experience being better than theoretical knowledge, rather the theoretical knowledge is frequently just plain wrong or extended beyond its applicability. Look at the FBI's terrible high-school surveillance program that was linked here recently. It's based off of really garbage pseudo-science concerning extremist radicalization. There is better, more modern research on the subject, which should be used instead, but even then caution should prevail and less theoretical and more informed logic and experienced based decisions might ultimately be wiser. In a healthy field of study and practice, as time goes on and more data gets accumulated theory increasingly approaches reality.
- _yosefk 11y ago
  I think in such a case, say with humans with a 1000-year lifespan, we would have learned a lot of things that aren't so and stayed that way. "Progress in science happens through the old guard dying" and all that, and it's not limited to science. I've felt since forever that my views are ossifying every day, so that I must be increasingly hopelessly wrong in those areas where I'm wrong. I try to fight it but I'm not sure there's any cure to it remotely as reliable as death...
edanm 11y ago
There are things from 1000's of years ago that are still relevant. But I think it's mostly survivorship bias. The very few things from long ago that we still read, are still relevant today. That's why we know about them! Take a random book from from most periods of history, and it will be uninteresting, if not outright unintelligible, to a modern audience.
- im3w1l 11y ago
  > Take a random book from from most periods of history I'd be very interested in doing in doing just that. How would I go about it? Weighted by popularity in that era would be fine, but not weighted according to current popularity.
  - aagha 11y ago
    I'm sure you can find old books scanned online [0], or you could go to library--especially if you're in a town with a lot of history (Boston, NYC)--even better if you're in Europe. Librarians are fantastic for this kind of thing. Tell them what you're trying to do, and they're marvelous and helping you find a way to use books and other resources to help you. 0 - https://www.google.com/googlebooks/about/ https://www.google.com/googlebooks/about/
- cJ0th 11y ago
  > But I think it's mostly survivorship bias I don't think so. Have you seen who wrote this piece? I'd say it is a classic case of the Barnum effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect
sanoli 11y ago
Like the other poster said, a lot of it is survivorship bias. There are tons of stuff that people did 1000 years ago that have just been discarded through time by being clearly ridiculous/wrong. We mostly never even hear about them anymore. Think of all the stuff people did and acted upon in the past based on superstition or baseless beliefs that was just passed on, but today has about a zero chance of being taken seriously if it were to be brought up.
- matt_wulfeck 11y ago
  And continue that thought and think for a minute about all of the hopeless stupid stuff our generation believes in that the next generations toss.
Toine 11y ago
I'd argue that most of life has been figured out by many, many people thousands of years ago. Greek philosophers had the exact same problems we do today, and over their lifetime they've been pretty successful at figuring out solutions. I'd even argue that most "self-help" books of today are just the same old solutions written in a different way.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by Mahn 11y ago

drjesusphd 11y ago

http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html

jameslk 11y ago

I've thought about this a lot on a philosophical level. A person goes through life repeating the same mistakes their parents made and their grandparents made before them, and so on. We spend so much time re-learning things that have already been learned. And doing things that have already been done. Imagine how life could be different if we didn't have to start over each time.

skosuri 11y ago
Basically no one would dream foolhardy dreams anymore, which would make society horrible.
BWStearns 11y ago
I listened to a talk on counterinsurgency given by David Kilcullen (I am about 90% sure, it could have been Nagl), but he asked the audience about whether it was better to learn from experience or from academics. The audience was about evenly split but with a lot of abstainers, and he said academia was the better choice of course, because no on ever died from reading a book. While "teachable moments" in most contexts aren't fatal, the overall point that it's better to learn from other people's mistakes remains the same.
- flyinglizard 11y ago
  It's a completely different matter between learning from theory and learning in practice. What's sorely missing from theoretical teaching is context - knowing when and how to apply this knowledge - and the actual experience of using it, which is critical to remembering what was taught. From my experience on this planet, purely theoretical teachings tend to be forgotten in favor of things you've actually used and done.
  - BWStearns 11y ago
    This logic always sounds good but I have a hard time really placing times when even in retrospect I lacked some wisdom from doing in order to apply the theory. I've had plenty of times where I lacked both the theory and the scraped elbows (creating shared state clusterfucks that seemed clever at the time), and times when I was missing the theory alone (mechanically reaching for the OO hammer because there was a nail-shaped screw in front of me). In all programming instances I can think of where I had the theory but not the experience I knew that there was a lot I didn't know and read about the implementation issues and went and bothered smarter people about it. Of course I wr[i|o]te plenty of shitty code in various contexts. I guess we can say that's the experience happening, but that's a bit unsatisfying as a model. With the theoretical learning you get measurably better: if you've literally never even heard of time complexity, or read the latency numbers everyone should know, you're more likely to write some code with some garbage performance. Once you know about it you're unlikely to write grossly nested loops making unnecessary un-batched requests to servers 12 timezones away, or if you do you'll at least feel gross about it and it will be a (bad) choice not a mistake. With experience with a particular technology you do as well. Knowing the Widget API inside out and knowing which Widget calls are lazy vs eager and which get cached or whatever are going to improve your code and get it written faster, but the gains are much more marginal than the theoretical knowledge. With enough practice learning new APIs gets easier. Remembering arbitrary incantations is something everyone eventually gets fairly good at. I think most of HN would do very well at Hogwarts. Assuming you already know how to program, I bet just reading something like Clean Code is likely to improve your JS quality more than an equivalent time spent churning out new JS (even though the example language in CC isn't JS so any benefit would be ported through theory). It's very cheap to implement theoretical concepts in practice and I think a lot of dismissiveness towards "theoretical" things are defensive insecurities and/or lazy, probably at the same rate that "premature optimization" is utilized in such causes. Software has a very narrow gulf between practical and theoretical. In domains where experience and theory are farther apart I propose that it's not so much experience being better than theoretical knowledge, rather the theoretical knowledge is frequently just plain wrong or extended beyond its applicability. Look at the FBI's terrible high-school surveillance program that was linked here recently. It's based off of really garbage pseudo-science concerning extremist radicalization. There is better, more modern research on the subject, which should be used instead, but even then caution should prevail and less theoretical and more informed logic and experienced based decisions might ultimately be wiser. In a healthy field of study and practice, as time goes on and more data gets accumulated theory increasingly approaches reality.
_yosefk 11y ago
I think in such a case, say with humans with a 1000-year lifespan, we would have learned a lot of things that aren't so and stayed that way. "Progress in science happens through the old guard dying" and all that, and it's not limited to science. I've felt since forever that my views are ossifying every day, so that I must be increasingly hopelessly wrong in those areas where I'm wrong. I try to fight it but I'm not sure there's any cure to it remotely as reliable as death...

edanm 11y ago

There are things from 1000's of years ago that are still relevant. But I think it's mostly survivorship bias. The very few things from long ago that we still read, are still relevant today. That's why we know about them! Take a random book from from most periods of history, and it will be uninteresting, if not outright unintelligible, to a modern audience.

im3w1l 11y ago
> Take a random book from from most periods of history I'd be very interested in doing in doing just that. How would I go about it? Weighted by popularity in that era would be fine, but not weighted according to current popularity.
- aagha 11y ago
  I'm sure you can find old books scanned online [0], or you could go to library--especially if you're in a town with a lot of history (Boston, NYC)--even better if you're in Europe. Librarians are fantastic for this kind of thing. Tell them what you're trying to do, and they're marvelous and helping you find a way to use books and other resources to help you. 0 - https://www.google.com/googlebooks/about/ https://www.google.com/googlebooks/about/
cJ0th 11y ago
> But I think it's mostly survivorship bias I don't think so. Have you seen who wrote this piece? I'd say it is a classic case of the Barnum effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect

sanoli 11y ago

Like the other poster said, a lot of it is survivorship bias. There are tons of stuff that people did 1000 years ago that have just been discarded through time by being clearly ridiculous/wrong. We mostly never even hear about them anymore. Think of all the stuff people did and acted upon in the past based on superstition or baseless beliefs that was just passed on, but today has about a zero chance of being taken seriously if it were to be brought up.

matt_wulfeck 11y ago
And continue that thought and think for a minute about all of the hopeless stupid stuff our generation believes in that the next generations toss.

Toine 11y ago

I'd argue that most of life has been figured out by many, many people thousands of years ago. Greek philosophers had the exact same problems we do today, and over their lifetime they've been pretty successful at figuring out solutions. I'd even argue that most "self-help" books of today are just the same old solutions written in a different way.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]