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This isn't to take away from your success at all, and it's great that you're happy with the outcome. But I think there are some self-selection biases involved i

This isn't to take away from your success at all, and it's great that you're happy with the outcome. But I think there are some self-selection biases involved in success stories that go unmentioned, likely due to a lack of people asking the right questions. Did you have a college degree before the bootcamp? People frequently mention you don't need a computer science degree, but plenty of places require a bachelors for standard office work. And having gone through a bachelors program might prepare someone for the "learning how to learn" aspect that's required for survival after the bootcamp. Did you possess any prior technological aptitude(s)? How much prior experience with mathematics did you have? Are you good at math, or able to understand it with enough work? How strong are your logical skills, and how were they maintained prior to the bootcamp? Anything else relevant? Autodidact? Connections to other people? Occupations of parents? Also, having the financial resources to pursue a bootcamp as an option might also be indicative of something. I think my point is that the promise of a bootcamp as guaranteed success no matter what your background seems uncertain without more data.

danso 11y ago
Speaking of self-selection...on HN, we're likely to hear testimonials from successful bootcamp graduates because -- assuming "success" equates to having a programming job and/or enjoying/understanding programming -- those are the type of people who are most likely to go on to visit and participate in HN discussions (though I know at least one bootcamp that tells its students on day one that they should be visiting HN's front page every day). While people who are dissatisfied with their experiences are just as/more likely to speak out about it -- I mean in general, such as a dining experience or App Store review -- they probably use another, more general forum for that.
komali2 11y ago
Many of the bootcamps rely on this self-selection as an aspect of their admissions, to ensure their post-program hire numbers stay high. For example, having a technical interview with a high failure rate, followed by about 80 hours of precourse work, followed by another failure chance on a precourse test. Those that have the desire and ability to learn enough technical material to first pass the technical interview, and then complete the precourse work, probably would have figured out a good deal of developer skills on their own anyway.
- jypepin 11y ago
  well yeah they are really select, but taking this into account goes in the same direction as saying that then it's fine to hire people from those bootcamp because the selection has already been made, right?
- TheCowboy 11y ago
  Most of the good bootcamps are likely to be more selective for these reasons, but we also don't get to see the data published in a transparent way to prove it. It's something that I think should be more open and verifiable, and that would include being able to verify that the published data is legitimate. Because it might help prevent against shadier operations who would obviously not release this data or attempt to fake it. If they're a for-profit entity, it's not in their interest to release accurate data if it were to be bad for business. It might be in the interest of the best bootcamps to lead by example here to prevent the proliferation of scam bootscamps that tarnish everyone's image.
jypepin 11y ago
you are right. good questions. So I had a bachelor's degree, but from a business school which I don't think gave me any "direct" skills needed for it. Maybe some stats classes etc. but I feel like this helped me very little. I don't think any of my jobs required me to have a degree and a lot of my current co-workers are self taught too. I don't feel like any bootcamp guarantees success, at least no more than a bachelor's. I had a lot of trouble getting a job despite a good degree in Canada, and am now way more successful with a bootcamp in the bay area. I'm not trying to say one is better, they are just different way of learning, different experiences and different length, so each work with different type of people I guess.
- TheCowboy 11y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I don't have a computer science degree so I find it interesting to hear. And being in school for those years doesn't tend to make people more stupid, so maybe it had some effect. I think people underestimate how quickly some skills like math atrophy when they go unused, or even more basic skills than that. It's funny to see such strong regional differences. Here, I believe it's normal for temping agencies to turn people away unless they have a 4 year degree (and a 2-year degree isn't considered valuable). I always get the impression that the Bay area is the most open to people taking this route.
  - jypepin 11y ago
    It seems like most tech hubs are ok with that. Since early on I've been contacted by startups also from NYC/Seattle area. I think it's like everything else, in areas where it's hard to hire engineers, companies will be willing to take open up their requirements... We're lucky in the tech industries, where positions and promotions are not based on degrees. Might be helpful for the first job but once you've got 1+ years of xp, it's all about what you can do, not your degree. Most of my friends in other industries HAVE to go back to school for an MBA or other degree because their company "only give X positions to MBA". Stupid.

danso 11y ago

Speaking of self-selection...on HN, we're likely to hear testimonials from successful bootcamp graduates because -- assuming "success" equates to having a programming job and/or enjoying/understanding programming -- those are the type of people who are most likely to go on to visit and participate in HN discussions (though I know at least one bootcamp that tells its students on day one that they should be visiting HN's front page every day). While people who are dissatisfied with their experiences are just as/more likely to speak out about it -- I mean in general, such as a dining experience or App Store review -- they probably use another, more general forum for that.

komali2 11y ago

Many of the bootcamps rely on this self-selection as an aspect of their admissions, to ensure their post-program hire numbers stay high. For example, having a technical interview with a high failure rate, followed by about 80 hours of precourse work, followed by another failure chance on a precourse test. Those that have the desire and ability to learn enough technical material to first pass the technical interview, and then complete the precourse work, probably would have figured out a good deal of developer skills on their own anyway.

jypepin 11y ago
well yeah they are really select, but taking this into account goes in the same direction as saying that then it's fine to hire people from those bootcamp because the selection has already been made, right?
TheCowboy 11y ago
Most of the good bootcamps are likely to be more selective for these reasons, but we also don't get to see the data published in a transparent way to prove it. It's something that I think should be more open and verifiable, and that would include being able to verify that the published data is legitimate. Because it might help prevent against shadier operations who would obviously not release this data or attempt to fake it. If they're a for-profit entity, it's not in their interest to release accurate data if it were to be bad for business. It might be in the interest of the best bootcamps to lead by example here to prevent the proliferation of scam bootscamps that tarnish everyone's image.

jypepin 11y ago

you are right. good questions. So I had a bachelor's degree, but from a business school which I don't think gave me any "direct" skills needed for it. Maybe some stats classes etc. but I feel like this helped me very little. I don't think any of my jobs required me to have a degree and a lot of my current co-workers are self taught too. I don't feel like any bootcamp guarantees success, at least no more than a bachelor's. I had a lot of trouble getting a job despite a good degree in Canada, and am now way more successful with a bootcamp in the bay area. I'm not trying to say one is better, they are just different way of learning, different experiences and different length, so each work with different type of people I guess.

TheCowboy 11y ago
Thanks for sharing. I don't have a computer science degree so I find it interesting to hear. And being in school for those years doesn't tend to make people more stupid, so maybe it had some effect. I think people underestimate how quickly some skills like math atrophy when they go unused, or even more basic skills than that. It's funny to see such strong regional differences. Here, I believe it's normal for temping agencies to turn people away unless they have a 4 year degree (and a 2-year degree isn't considered valuable). I always get the impression that the Bay area is the most open to people taking this route.
- jypepin 11y ago
  It seems like most tech hubs are ok with that. Since early on I've been contacted by startups also from NYC/Seattle area. I think it's like everything else, in areas where it's hard to hire engineers, companies will be willing to take open up their requirements... We're lucky in the tech industries, where positions and promotions are not based on degrees. Might be helpful for the first job but once you've got 1+ years of xp, it's all about what you can do, not your degree. Most of my friends in other industries HAVE to go back to school for an MBA or other degree because their company "only give X positions to MBA". Stupid.