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Great, I wouldn't hire you. I don't care how smart you are. Just on the basis of effort you're willing to put forward on tasks you deem unimportant to you mean

Great, I wouldn't hire you. I don't care how smart you are. Just on the basis of effort you're willing to put forward on tasks you deem unimportant to you means that I can't trust you to perform tasks that I deem important to me. I need someone willing to work through "bullshit" tasks just as much as I need someone to work on "gee-whiz-wow" tasks.

chanux 17y ago
This type is not the get-hired type. It's the do-things-different-and-change-the-world type.
- sanj 17y ago
  You'd be surprised at how many of the tasks are BS-y when changing the world.
  - pw0ncakes 17y ago
    You need to take a middle ground. Not doing a mundane task for no other reason than it's "boring" is immature and self-defeating. On the other hand, it's important not to become the office garbage disposal. "Grunt work" that you learn from or that sets you up to do more interesting work is not so bad. If you build a city, you need to maintain the sewer system. If your company has you maintaining 8 peoples' cities because you're young and expected to pay dues, you should get another job.
  - chrischen 17y ago
    Boring does not equal BS-y. BS work is pointless, while boring might be understandably necessary. The authors complaint was of BS work, not necessarily of boring work. You can tell if he is simply avoidant of boring work by seeing if he carries out projects which he sees value toward, and whether or not he does everything, including the boring stuff, to completion. I'll admit his article doesn't actually give insight to this, but it's safe to assume.
    - timwiseman 17y ago
      If he manages to be his own boss (startup, small company, etc) then that is precisely right. However if he has a job(and he states he does) then his value as an employee is about him carrying out the projects his boss(es) see value in. Of course, a good boss will try to explain why the tasks he is assigning are important so the employees will see value in it too. Sometimes that is not possible. For instance, perhaps the reason behind the task involves sensitive information that cannot be released (this comes up very often in the military, and occassionally in corporate jobs.) Perhaps there just isn't time for the explanation right then. Or perhaps the employee just disagrees with the explanation when given. In those cases, a good employee will get the project done well whether or not the employee sees value in it because the boss/organization does see value in it. An employee that does not do that should and probably will be fired with cause.
      - chrischen 17y ago
        You're absolutely right. Frankly I wouldn't want to hire only people who do what they feel like. But then again I would also recognize their true potential and wouldn't have them working under someone following explicit directions. They'd get a promotion from me and given more freedom. I'll hand those people problems, not instructions like the rest of the working population may receive.
    - liquidben 17y ago
      I think the grandparent post's application of quotation marks around "BS" subtly speaks volumes, i.e. perception of the bullshit value of a job is potentially invalid. Marco's essay reads as if he's got a pretty unilateral opinion about the worth of things. A person is allowed to deem something BS, but they've got to be open to potential compromise. Apparently someone once thought over-designing the O-rings on the shuttle was BS work.
      - chrischen 17y ago
        I assumed the article's definition of BS is stuff that is universally BS. Frankly if something isn't BS, the reason can be properly explained. And if the subject can't understand the reason why, then he/she is not ready to do the work. So whoever over-designed the O-rings must have had a good reason to do so. If he/she had a good reason, it is by definition no longer BS (it may still be boring grunt work). If not, then they were just lucky that it worked out.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  Yeah, that's a nice thought, but not really reflective of reality. First, the guy already has a job, which he clearly states in the essay. Second, the majority of people who change the world have jobs at different points in their career. People like Gates, Jobs, and Dell who never really had jobs and just did their own thing from day 1 are so far an exception that they're probably worthless as role models in that sense. Finally, the majority of people who bullshit their way through school and deliberately slack off because they're cynical about the system do not change the world. Some do, but so do some people who work hard, apply themselves, and get as much as they can out of the broken system. In fact, I'm betting that more of the latter do, but that's just my opinion.
  - pw0ncakes 17y ago
    People like Gates, Jobs, and Dell who never really had jobs and just did their own thing from day 1 are so far an exception that they're probably worthless as role models in that sense. Right. They are like pro athletes. Their work ethic is to be admired, but expecting one's life to be anything like theirs without great evidence is idiocy. Some do, but so do some people who work hard, apply themselves, and get as much as they can out of the broken system. In fact, I'm betting that more of the latter do, but that's just my opinion. I think so. American high school life is a pretend world. Much of it-- prom, the cafeteria hierarchy, the make-work assignments, the goofy assemblies-- is bullshit. On the other hand, a few of the classes and teachers are really good. Why not take advantage of the few opportunities that do present themselves?
  - chrischen 17y ago
    My school once told me that bill gates wouldn't be hirable for the IT department because he doesn't have a degree.
dutchflyboy 17y ago
I agree. A guy who says "I just didn’t do my homework because I knew it was bullshit" just doesn't deserve any help.
- Retric 17y ago
  A Job is not help. I don't want to higher people with a 4.0 GPA because they don't know how to prioritize tasks.
cynicalkane 17y ago
Secondary education isn't really comparable to working in a capitalist society. It's more like the old Soviet system, where the expectations were arbitrary and meaningless, and the rewards meaningless and worthless--and everyone of sufficient intelligence knew it, even the bureaucrats. Especially the bureaucrats. The same is true of the typical high school, where either you know how stupid everything is or you're drinking the Kool-aid. Fortunately I went to a school where there were enough good classes and teachers to make up for it, but apparently this guy didn't. Anyway, at my job at a big important corporation, busy work and meaningless stuff happens--but it's not common, and the higher ups usually think they have a good reason for it. They're not just going through the motions of "assign work, evaluate performance". And if they are, you are free to--and should--find a job elsewhere.
holograham 17y ago
As an employer if you are handing out bullshit tasks then no one competent would want to to work for you. If the tasks actually aren't bullshit, it is up to you to convey the importance of the task to your employees. Same goes with teachers and assignments.
- hga 17y ago
  What if your customer or the government demands that your company do some "bullshit tasks"?
  - pw0ncakes 17y ago
    Hire dumb people who won't mind being garbage disposals in order to have pay and prestige that would otherwise be out of their league. In investment banks, this is known as the "analyst" program.
pw0ncakes 17y ago
I think the reflexive not-doing-homework attitude is moronic and ultimately more useless than doing everything assigned without introspection. I tended to do the assignments in school. They were easy compared to the things I would do on my own, and the silly ones tended not to be time-consuming. If you never do homework, how do you know that the homework is bullshit? Some teachers actually know what they're doing, after all.
- bugs 17y ago
  Some teachers may know what they are doing but by the time highschool rolls around the smarter students already have been through so many bullshit classes and assignments to have figured out how to get the grade their parents (or themselves) want or require with minimal effort and work. I didn't like homework in school and I didn't do it but that doesn't stop me from doing it in college courses where I don't understand the material but it does stop me from doing grunt work for the sake of doing grunt work.
lolcraft 17y ago
If you are hiring for truly bullshit tasks, you are wasting your money. It's that simple. On the other hand, maybe you wanted to say "boring tasks which are necessary". But don't they stop being bullshit, by definition, when there's some monetary incentive attached to them?
nerme 17y ago
Awesome, so what kind of people are working for you? Did any of them pretty much single handily engineer tumblr? Or do you have a bunch of shmucks who plod in to work, do what they are told (and never any more), and then plod back home? Have you ever thought that maybe the most successful businesses are the ones where the employees are bright and motivated and will actually call YOU out on your bullshit ideas? Do you really think that every idea that you deem important really is important?
jdietrich 17y ago
From the source: "I'm Marco Arment, lead developer of Tumblr and only developer of Instapaper.". I don't think Marco really gives a shit about whether you would hire him or not. He has better options than to be cube fodder. The same goes for anyone who can build good things and solve real problems. If I were to concoct some evidence for my case, I couldn't do better than Marco's boss at Tumblr, David Karp. In this industry, smart people who ship get to call their own shots.

chanux 17y ago

This type is not the get-hired type. It's the do-things-different-and-change-the-world type.

sanj 17y ago
You'd be surprised at how many of the tasks are BS-y when changing the world.
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  You need to take a middle ground. Not doing a mundane task for no other reason than it's "boring" is immature and self-defeating. On the other hand, it's important not to become the office garbage disposal. "Grunt work" that you learn from or that sets you up to do more interesting work is not so bad. If you build a city, you need to maintain the sewer system. If your company has you maintaining 8 peoples' cities because you're young and expected to pay dues, you should get another job.
- chrischen 17y ago
  Boring does not equal BS-y. BS work is pointless, while boring might be understandably necessary. The authors complaint was of BS work, not necessarily of boring work. You can tell if he is simply avoidant of boring work by seeing if he carries out projects which he sees value toward, and whether or not he does everything, including the boring stuff, to completion. I'll admit his article doesn't actually give insight to this, but it's safe to assume.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    If he manages to be his own boss (startup, small company, etc) then that is precisely right. However if he has a job(and he states he does) then his value as an employee is about him carrying out the projects his boss(es) see value in. Of course, a good boss will try to explain why the tasks he is assigning are important so the employees will see value in it too. Sometimes that is not possible. For instance, perhaps the reason behind the task involves sensitive information that cannot be released (this comes up very often in the military, and occassionally in corporate jobs.) Perhaps there just isn't time for the explanation right then. Or perhaps the employee just disagrees with the explanation when given. In those cases, a good employee will get the project done well whether or not the employee sees value in it because the boss/organization does see value in it. An employee that does not do that should and probably will be fired with cause.
    - chrischen 17y ago
      You're absolutely right. Frankly I wouldn't want to hire only people who do what they feel like. But then again I would also recognize their true potential and wouldn't have them working under someone following explicit directions. They'd get a promotion from me and given more freedom. I'll hand those people problems, not instructions like the rest of the working population may receive.
  - liquidben 17y ago
    I think the grandparent post's application of quotation marks around "BS" subtly speaks volumes, i.e. perception of the bullshit value of a job is potentially invalid. Marco's essay reads as if he's got a pretty unilateral opinion about the worth of things. A person is allowed to deem something BS, but they've got to be open to potential compromise. Apparently someone once thought over-designing the O-rings on the shuttle was BS work.
    - chrischen 17y ago
      I assumed the article's definition of BS is stuff that is universally BS. Frankly if something isn't BS, the reason can be properly explained. And if the subject can't understand the reason why, then he/she is not ready to do the work. So whoever over-designed the O-rings must have had a good reason to do so. If he/she had a good reason, it is by definition no longer BS (it may still be boring grunt work). If not, then they were just lucky that it worked out.
ryanwaggoner 17y ago
Yeah, that's a nice thought, but not really reflective of reality. First, the guy already has a job, which he clearly states in the essay. Second, the majority of people who change the world have jobs at different points in their career. People like Gates, Jobs, and Dell who never really had jobs and just did their own thing from day 1 are so far an exception that they're probably worthless as role models in that sense. Finally, the majority of people who bullshit their way through school and deliberately slack off because they're cynical about the system do not change the world. Some do, but so do some people who work hard, apply themselves, and get as much as they can out of the broken system. In fact, I'm betting that more of the latter do, but that's just my opinion.
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  People like Gates, Jobs, and Dell who never really had jobs and just did their own thing from day 1 are so far an exception that they're probably worthless as role models in that sense. Right. They are like pro athletes. Their work ethic is to be admired, but expecting one's life to be anything like theirs without great evidence is idiocy. Some do, but so do some people who work hard, apply themselves, and get as much as they can out of the broken system. In fact, I'm betting that more of the latter do, but that's just my opinion. I think so. American high school life is a pretend world. Much of it-- prom, the cafeteria hierarchy, the make-work assignments, the goofy assemblies-- is bullshit. On the other hand, a few of the classes and teachers are really good. Why not take advantage of the few opportunities that do present themselves?
- chrischen 17y ago
  My school once told me that bill gates wouldn't be hirable for the IT department because he doesn't have a degree.

dutchflyboy 17y ago

I agree. A guy who says "I just didn’t do my homework because I knew it was bullshit" just doesn't deserve any help.

Retric 17y ago
A Job is not help. I don't want to higher people with a 4.0 GPA because they don't know how to prioritize tasks.

cynicalkane 17y ago

Secondary education isn't really comparable to working in a capitalist society. It's more like the old Soviet system, where the expectations were arbitrary and meaningless, and the rewards meaningless and worthless--and everyone of sufficient intelligence knew it, even the bureaucrats. Especially the bureaucrats. The same is true of the typical high school, where either you know how stupid everything is or you're drinking the Kool-aid. Fortunately I went to a school where there were enough good classes and teachers to make up for it, but apparently this guy didn't. Anyway, at my job at a big important corporation, busy work and meaningless stuff happens--but it's not common, and the higher ups usually think they have a good reason for it. They're not just going through the motions of "assign work, evaluate performance". And if they are, you are free to--and should--find a job elsewhere.

holograham 17y ago

As an employer if you are handing out bullshit tasks then no one competent would want to to work for you. If the tasks actually aren't bullshit, it is up to you to convey the importance of the task to your employees. Same goes with teachers and assignments.

hga 17y ago
What if your customer or the government demands that your company do some "bullshit tasks"?
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  Hire dumb people who won't mind being garbage disposals in order to have pay and prestige that would otherwise be out of their league. In investment banks, this is known as the "analyst" program.

pw0ncakes 17y ago

I think the reflexive not-doing-homework attitude is moronic and ultimately more useless than doing everything assigned without introspection. I tended to do the assignments in school. They were easy compared to the things I would do on my own, and the silly ones tended not to be time-consuming. If you never do homework, how do you know that the homework is bullshit? Some teachers actually know what they're doing, after all.

bugs 17y ago
Some teachers may know what they are doing but by the time highschool rolls around the smarter students already have been through so many bullshit classes and assignments to have figured out how to get the grade their parents (or themselves) want or require with minimal effort and work. I didn't like homework in school and I didn't do it but that doesn't stop me from doing it in college courses where I don't understand the material but it does stop me from doing grunt work for the sake of doing grunt work.

lolcraft 17y ago

If you are hiring for truly bullshit tasks, you are wasting your money. It's that simple. On the other hand, maybe you wanted to say "boring tasks which are necessary". But don't they stop being bullshit, by definition, when there's some monetary incentive attached to them?

nerme 17y ago

Awesome, so what kind of people are working for you? Did any of them pretty much single handily engineer tumblr? Or do you have a bunch of shmucks who plod in to work, do what they are told (and never any more), and then plod back home? Have you ever thought that maybe the most successful businesses are the ones where the employees are bright and motivated and will actually call YOU out on your bullshit ideas? Do you really think that every idea that you deem important really is important?

jdietrich 17y ago

From the source: "I'm Marco Arment, lead developer of Tumblr and only developer of Instapaper.". I don't think Marco really gives a shit about whether you would hire him or not. He has better options than to be cube fodder. The same goes for anyone who can build good things and solve real problems. If I were to concoct some evidence for my case, I couldn't do better than Marco's boss at Tumblr, David Karp. In this industry, smart people who ship get to call their own shots.