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> 11. For many Americans, the term “Amish” has strong positive associations: honesty, simplicity, old-fashioned virtue. I'm surprised by this. I associate "Ami
by chroma 11y ago
> 11. For many Americans, the term “Amish” has strong positive associations: honesty, simplicity, old-fashioned virtue.
I'm surprised by this. I associate "Amish" with inbred luddites who abuse their children. I'm not saying "inbred" as a cheap insult. From the Wikipedia article on the Amish:
> Since almost all Amish descend from about 200 18th-century founders, genetic disorders that come out due to inbreeding exist in more isolated districts (an example of the founder effect). Some of these disorders are quite rare, or unique, and are serious enough to increase the mortality rate among Amish children. The Amish are aware of the advantages of exogamy, but for religious reasons only marry within their communities. The majority of Amish accept these as "Gottes Wille" (God's will); they reject use of preventive genetic tests prior to marriage and genetic testing of unborn children to discover genetic disorders.
Also, the very last point:
> 12. Amish employees in Amish businesses are exempt from mainstream companies’ Social Security, health insurance and pension mandates. Though that keeps costs down, the impact is often exaggerated, Amish business owners say.
Talk about burying the lede! I had no idea Amish businesses had such huge tax breaks.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health
- mc32 11y agoThe Amish are hardly the only endogamous group in the US. Many small immigrant communities engage in similar behavior, because due to cultural reasons, they tend to marry into the same group, it's only as they integrate into the greater society they become more exogamous. Now, the difference here, is that they remain voluntarily isolated after so many generations and they don't tend to "import" mates from over seas as some smaller immigrant communities might do.
- chroma 11y agoThe main difference (to me) is that other groups use genetic testing to prevent diseases in their children. For example, Ashkenazi Jews use genetic testing to avoid having children with Tay-Sachs.[1] But the Amish's luddism causes them to reject these tests, ensuring that some of their children will needlessly suffer and die. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay%E2%80%93Sachs_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay%E2%80%93Sachs_disease
- larsiusprime 11y agoPlenty non-luddite children suffer and die from car accidents and drowning in swimming pools without us much registering a blink. I think it's short sighted of these people not to do the genetic tests as you say, but I get the sense that your desire to judge them for being a weird outgroup is preventing an objective accounting here.
- mc32 11y agoI grant that genetic testing among some of these groups help avoid some of the negative consequences of a small gene pool, but let's not forget that some people in perfectly modern societies make odd choices about preventing disease such as the anti-vaccine movement who are generally well educated and who aren't typically characterized as luddites.
- larsiusprime 11y agoThree claims, let's evaluate: "inbred" seems to have a factual basis, that's fair. "luddite" in this context is an unnecessarily loaded term that suggests an ignorance of history. (I.E., the luddites [1] were not simplistically anti-technology, they were anti-"the crown suddenly taking away the common land and giving it to rich capitalists to enrich themselves with industry while displacing us as laborers, and then blaming us for being against progress", ie, "Enclosure.') [2] "abuse their children" requires proof. Is there evidence the amish abuse their children at a rate higher than the rest of society, and/or other cultural enclaves such as tight-nit immigrant groups? [1] http://www.amazon.com/Rebels-Against-The-Future-Industrial/dp/0201407183 http://www.amazon.com/Rebels-Against-The-Future-Industrial/d... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure
- rat87 11y agoI'm curious what you mean by land? My impression was that the luddites were a movement against machines which let the factory workers replace high paying skilled jobs with low paying unskilled jobs.
- larsiusprime 11y agoPlease read the citations :) EDIT: Ah, I see your comment below now, that's fair, I guess I should have used better citations. In short -- in the period before enclosure, many of the people who became the luddites were allowed to work common land for their own benefit despite not owning it themselves. This was a major source of sustenance for them. After enclosure, they were deprived of this. The factory owners exploited enclosure to get land to build their factories on. So it wasn't just automation replacing workers, it was also depriving them of a resource (common land) they previous depended on via privatization.
- rat87 11y agoI can't read the whole book but I couldn't find anything in the Amazon article about land or enclosure. The enclosure wiki article doesn't mention Luddites. The only thing I could guess at is that this process seems to have driven peasants into the cities to become workers in factories. But i thought the luddites were skilled if not educated upper middle class workers(like UAW autoworkers used to be) not peneniless peasants. Although I suppose some of them might have been employed as apprentices and developed the needed skills.
- jkraker 11y ago> I'm surprised by this. I associate "Amish" with inbred luddites who abuse their children. I'm not saying "inbred" as a cheap insult. From the Wikipedia article on the Amish We need to be careful with this. A lot of problems happen when strong conclusions like this are drawn about a people group without actually interacting with actual people. Wikipedia facts are likely correct to some degree (like a stereotype?), but to make sweeping generalizations about all individuals involved is usually not helpful.
- HillRat 11y agoOne mistake that many people make is attempting to understand the Amish as a religious sect. Really, they're more tribal; in fact, many Amish are essentially Biblically illiterate, as their "official" Bible is a translation in Hochdeutsch, which few understand. (Mennonites and New Order Amish tend to be more avowedly religious, however.) As to their way of life ... well, they're people, not a theme park exhibit of bucolic pacifism, and people are inherently messy and complex. None of the Amish sects support personal fulfillment and self-actualization, certainly, and the social penalties for transgression are steep. Even worse, the insular and passive nature of the communities end up giving support to those who physically and emotionally abuse their families, even if they're a very small number within the larger Amish society.
- tzs 11y agoI am assuming you are using "luddite" in the way it is typically used nowadays to mean opposed to technology, rather than using it to try to compare them to those who protested being replaced by machines in the early 19th century. If so, you are quite wrong. This article on Amish hackers is enlightening: http://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/ http://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/
- chroma 11y agoYour interpretation of my usage of luddite is correct. I was talking about what first comes to mind when I hear "Amish". That's a little different from what I actually think their beliefs are. That said, while I know the Amish have a more nuanced view than simple luddism, I don't think it's an unreasonable one-word summary. If there's one thing the Amish are known for, it's their lack of much of modern technology. Heck, most Amish spurn refrigeration. If that can't be called luddism, then I don't know what can. I've seen the Amish hackers post before, and I always thought it perfectly demonstrated the Amish's schizophrenic relationship with technology. They won't use the electrical grid because they don't want to be tied to the rest of the world. OK, so where do they get the diesel to run their generators? They certainly don't extract and refine their own petroleum products. Many use compressed air to avoid electricity, but who provides them with pressure vessels and braided metal lines for these devices? Who makes their CNC mills and software to operate them? Etcetera. They need the outside world to maintain their standard of living. They just have an extra step or two of indirection compared to most of us.
- paulryanrogers 11y agoBased on what I've read it seems they're most concerned with the impact of consuming technology on their immediate community. My guess is they aren't as concerned about the production of what they consume.
- tzs 11y agoWhere did you get the idea that most Amish spurn refrigeration? Many don't have refrigerators, but that doesn't mean they don't have refrigeration. Those without refrigerators usually use ice boxes. I don't think most Amish view the issue of being tied to the outside world or not as a binary thing. It's a matter of how tied they wish to be. Using diesel and using electricity from the grid both tie one to the outside world, but not to the same degree. With diesel you have many possible suppliers so if you have a problem with one you can switch to another. You can stockpile it so you can go for a long time without outside contact if you need to. With electricity from the grid you generally only have one supplier. When the grid goes down you are down. You have to physically connect to the grid, and have equipment owned by the power company on or near your property, such to visits from the power company. All in all, going on the grid entwines you much more with the outside world than does using diesel.
- rat87 11y agoThe reason they were allowed to be exempt was that they were a small community who promised and demonstrated that they would take care of each other in old age.
- jhonovich 11y ago"I had no idea Amish businesses had such huge tax breaks." That is countered by them not taking / getting Social Security payments, government insurance, benefits, public schooling, etc.