3 ms·

I disagree. The problem here is that every company has above average performers, average performers, and below average performers. However, almost everyone th

by jeremyt 11y ago

I disagree. The problem here is that every company has above average performers, average performers, and below average performers. However, almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer. Therefore, if salaries are shared, at least two thirds of your workers are liable to be pissed off at what they are making, even though the amount is completely fair based on their actual worth to the company.

toolz 11y ago
Transparency solves that problem. If below average workers moved from business to business getting paid less than their peers, how long do you think they would consider themselves better than average?
- jeremyt 11y ago
  Possibly forever, and I think it's very likely they develop a chip on their shoulder because the world is not properly valuing their skills. Never underestimate the ability of people to come up with all kinds of reasons why they are being treated unfairly.
  - toolz 11y ago
    I think that's a negative bias. The majority of people behave rationally and while they may speak negatively in public, internally they will understand the pattern. We have a tendency to put too much value in what people say rather than how they act. I'm confident actions would reflect people understanding their value in a transparent world, even if their words did not.
  - retrogradeorbit 11y ago
    I agree. Over the decades I have worked with a few below average engineers who were so deeply arrogant they simply refused to believe they weren't God's gift to engineering. This is a small minority though.
- guroot 11y ago
  That's a nice thought. But I think too much of our culture has been focused on assigning blame for these sort of things to the the "system". I'm sure some would come to the conclusion you suggest, but I fear many would fall into a victim role and point fingers.
BinaryIdiot 11y ago
> almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer.[...]Therefore, if salaries are shared, at least two thirds of your workers are liable to be pissed off at what they are making, even though the amount is completely fair based on their actual worth to the company. This is a strawman. Where is your data to back up that "almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer"? At least anecdotally I've never run into anything close to that. Almost everyone I've ever worked with that would be considered at or below average knew very well where they were. Their managers also had the data and would sit down and discuss it with them so even if they thought they weren't they certainly knew the company felt they were. Perhaps if you jumped into an organization where feedback wasn't given (or given honestly) and opened up salaries you could have an issue. But the majority of companies should be giving employees valid, data-backed feedback which would not make them surprised if someone better performing is making more money than them. Buffer[0] seems to do well with it and an experiment where a Plumbing company[1] did it ended up having lots of positives out of it. Those are just two data points but it shows it's doable. If you have data that shows otherwise, especially for the numbers you made up, feel free to post it as I would be interested in it. [0] https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries/ https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries/ [1] http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4422455/Pimlico-Plumbers-colleagues-reveal-their-salaries-for-Channel-4-show-Show-Me-Your-Money.html http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4422455/Pimlic...
- mattsmith123 11y ago
  > Where is your data to back up that "almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer? It is a pretty well documented phenomena. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
    > It is a pretty well documented phenomena. The effect of an individual feeling above average is, yes, documented and pointed out in your links. But that has nothing to do with "almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer". Where is the data showing "almost everyone" feels this way? Even reading the wikis you linked it's obvious people will feel this about certain topics or even just in general when comparing themselves to someone else. I didn't see any direct correlation or sources regarding how the majority of people feel, overall, against the majority of others.

by jeremyt 11y ago

toolz 11y ago

Transparency solves that problem. If below average workers moved from business to business getting paid less than their peers, how long do you think they would consider themselves better than average?

jeremyt 11y ago
Possibly forever, and I think it's very likely they develop a chip on their shoulder because the world is not properly valuing their skills. Never underestimate the ability of people to come up with all kinds of reasons why they are being treated unfairly.
- toolz 11y ago
  I think that's a negative bias. The majority of people behave rationally and while they may speak negatively in public, internally they will understand the pattern. We have a tendency to put too much value in what people say rather than how they act. I'm confident actions would reflect people understanding their value in a transparent world, even if their words did not.
- retrogradeorbit 11y ago
  I agree. Over the decades I have worked with a few below average engineers who were so deeply arrogant they simply refused to believe they weren't God's gift to engineering. This is a small minority though.
guroot 11y ago
That's a nice thought. But I think too much of our culture has been focused on assigning blame for these sort of things to the the "system". I'm sure some would come to the conclusion you suggest, but I fear many would fall into a victim role and point fingers.

BinaryIdiot 11y ago

> almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer.[...]Therefore, if salaries are shared, at least two thirds of your workers are liable to be pissed off at what they are making, even though the amount is completely fair based on their actual worth to the company. This is a strawman. Where is your data to back up that "almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer"? At least anecdotally I've never run into anything close to that. Almost everyone I've ever worked with that would be considered at or below average knew very well where they were. Their managers also had the data and would sit down and discuss it with them so even if they thought they weren't they certainly knew the company felt they were. Perhaps if you jumped into an organization where feedback wasn't given (or given honestly) and opened up salaries you could have an issue. But the majority of companies should be giving employees valid, data-backed feedback which would not make them surprised if someone better performing is making more money than them. Buffer[0] seems to do well with it and an experiment where a Plumbing company[1] did it ended up having lots of positives out of it. Those are just two data points but it shows it's doable. If you have data that shows otherwise, especially for the numbers you made up, feel free to post it as I would be interested in it. [0] https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries/ https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries/ [1] http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4422455/Pimlico-Plumbers-colleagues-reveal-their-salaries-for-Channel-4-show-Show-Me-Your-Money.html http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4422455/Pimlic...

mattsmith123 11y ago
> Where is your data to back up that "almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer? It is a pretty well documented phenomena. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  > It is a pretty well documented phenomena. The effect of an individual feeling above average is, yes, documented and pointed out in your links. But that has nothing to do with "almost everyone thinks they are an above average performer". Where is the data showing "almost everyone" feels this way? Even reading the wikis you linked it's obvious people will feel this about certain topics or even just in general when comparing themselves to someone else. I didn't see any direct correlation or sources regarding how the majority of people feel, overall, against the majority of others.