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Q: Are you sick of the Socratic method? A: Oh God yes. Q: What's wrong with it? A: It's overly verbose, condescending, and allows you to give the appearance

Q: Are you sick of the Socratic method? A: Oh God yes. Q: What's wrong with it? A: It's overly verbose, condescending, and allows you to give the appearance of resolving a debate when all you've actually done is talk down to a sock puppet.

ktRolster 11y ago
Q: Why should that be different than any other type of rhetoric? A: If you want truth, read a scientific study, not a blog.
- dave2000 11y ago
  Q. Are there actually proper studies done by and of proper developers writing proper (ie not trivial crap) code which demonstrate the pros and cons of TDD?
  - ktRolster 11y ago
    A. This one is probably good, it compares actual software teams: http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/03/TDD-Improves-Quality http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/03/TDD-Improves-Quality It shows in increase in quality, but with an increase in development time. It is my un-studied assessment that the improvements seen from TDD are primarily a result of the programmers thinking more. It pushes you to think of every edge case. It also gives more experienced programmers a chance to mentor younger programmers (for example, you can easily look at the test coverage and say, "look, you need to test these things too." It's harder to do that (though still possible) without tests).
greenyoda 11y ago
"It's overly verbose, condescending, and allows you to give the appearance of resolving a debate when all you've actually done is talk down to a sock puppet." I agree with your criticism of the article's style. But to be fair, if you're arguing with yourself (as the author is), it's not really the Socratic Method, which is a dialog with another person. If you don't get to control what questions the other person asks, it makes for much a more interesting conversation.
- me_again 11y ago
  Agreed- if there are 2 real people debating, it's much more bearable. Ironically some of the canonical Socratic dialogs (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1643/1643-h/1643-h.htm http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1643/1643-h/1643-h.htm) have the same problem - Meno's slave is too obviously Plato's mouthpiece IMHO.
- jacques_chester 11y ago
  Sock-puppeting is rife in Plato's books. And it is just as infuriating as Bob Martin's writing is. But I agree with Martin more than I do with Plato. Take that as you will.

ktRolster 11y ago

Q: Why should that be different than any other type of rhetoric? A: If you want truth, read a scientific study, not a blog.

dave2000 11y ago
Q. Are there actually proper studies done by and of proper developers writing proper (ie not trivial crap) code which demonstrate the pros and cons of TDD?
- ktRolster 11y ago
  A. This one is probably good, it compares actual software teams: http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/03/TDD-Improves-Quality http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/03/TDD-Improves-Quality It shows in increase in quality, but with an increase in development time. It is my un-studied assessment that the improvements seen from TDD are primarily a result of the programmers thinking more. It pushes you to think of every edge case. It also gives more experienced programmers a chance to mentor younger programmers (for example, you can easily look at the test coverage and say, "look, you need to test these things too." It's harder to do that (though still possible) without tests).

greenyoda 11y ago

"It's overly verbose, condescending, and allows you to give the appearance of resolving a debate when all you've actually done is talk down to a sock puppet." I agree with your criticism of the article's style. But to be fair, if you're arguing with yourself (as the author is), it's not really the Socratic Method, which is a dialog with another person. If you don't get to control what questions the other person asks, it makes for much a more interesting conversation.

me_again 11y ago
Agreed- if there are 2 real people debating, it's much more bearable. Ironically some of the canonical Socratic dialogs (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1643/1643-h/1643-h.htm http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1643/1643-h/1643-h.htm) have the same problem - Meno's slave is too obviously Plato's mouthpiece IMHO.
jacques_chester 11y ago
Sock-puppeting is rife in Plato's books. And it is just as infuriating as Bob Martin's writing is. But I agree with Martin more than I do with Plato. Take that as you will.